Ethics regarding police ignoring suicide threat

[jemc]

Wow, you sure are an angry person. Just because I only mentioned one person, family member, who committed suicide, does not mean that is the only one I knew. You have no idea what education or training I have in the area of mental health issues. If taking your anger out on me makes you feel better, fire away. I don't know how much more obvious it could be that the officers knew how deeply depressed she had become. I did not mention they offered to get her help and she refused, because they NEVER did. Just seeing the result of suicide, does not make you an expert on what it feels like to get to the point of being in so much pain you want to end it all. Just as working cases where a complete stranger has been murdered does not make you an expert on how it feels to the family members left behind. Or working cases invovling child sexual abuse does not make you an expert in how such abuse affects a person in their adult life /relastionships. Similarly, witnessing the aftermath of all of these events and others affects you in a way that no one, other than a fellow officer, could ever understand.

My post never named the department or the officers involved. Nor did I say anything should happen to them or did our family make an effort to "take action" against the officers or the department. That would be anger. What I want is to find out what is already in place to help police officers be aware of the signs of suicide and how training can be improved so that they are even more aware. Also improve knowledge of just what it feels like to get to the point of wanting to kill yourself. Yes, I am somewhat of an expert in this area as I myself attempted to kill myself, but luckily, my co-workers and friends noticed and did more than just tell me they noticed. They suggested help that was available to me and then took me to get the help. I want to help people in ALL professions, not just peace officers, to understand how important it is to pay attention and not wait for someone else to do something.

[jemc]

She sent them emails. That is how I know what was said and when. She also was a prolific writer and kept an electronic journal. She wrote some very positive entries about her work as a reserve officer and her respect for the officers she worked with. In fact, very little negative entries where written. As for why I was not aware of exactly how depressed she was, I live over 1000 miles away and she communicated mainly by email. She was a very tallanted writer and was able to hide behind her words. There is not a day that goes by that I don't ask myself why I did not realize she was so depressed or wonder what I could have done. Pointing fingers and placing blame seems to be the norm here. Sweeping problems under the rug by ignoring the real issue and refusing to learn from it, only makes for a lumpy rug. The problems are still there. Pointing fingers does nothing but build walls that impede communication and keep things status quo. Looking at what happened and learning from it, can't hurt. Doing nothing but blame one another can do nothing but hurt.

[retdetsgt]

You have no idea what education or training I have in the area of mental health issues.

From your posts, I'd have to think not much. Perhaps some classroom training, but nothing in the real world. Your posts are full of ignorance about suicide and attempted suicide and contain popular myth. As I said, I've investigated at least a hundred and been involved in more attempted. Not to mention, you have no idea of my education either.;) I've also had some colleagues and a couple of friends commit suicide. None of them gave anyone a clue, they just did it. They were serious and not looking for attention.

As far as angry, you came here looking for someone to blame, it was obvious from your first two posts. Go ahead, but as we've all said, the police have very little power in the matter, it has nothing to do with training. But if you're going to accuse others of pointing fingers, you might look in the mirror.

I purposely didn't suggest you didn't do enough because I don't know your relationship with the person. But every time the police have a fatal confrontation with a mentally ill person, the family always blames us. I always wonder where the family was when this person needed them? Obviously, you weren't available, but where was the person's family and other friends?

I'm truly sorry for the loss of your friend, as I said, I've lost a number of friends and family too. And the first reaction of most people is to look for a reason and then someone to blame. We blame ourselves and we look for others to blame. I lost my stepson to a one car accident several years ago, the first thing the family and friends did was look for someone they could hold responsible other than him. They really reached, but at the end of the day, he made some very bad choices. That doesn't mean he was loved less, it means there was no one else to blame.

So to answer your original question, the Sgt had no responsibility to do anything, training or not.

[InTheEnd]

Don't get yourself worked up in coulda/shoulda/if only.

[Samuel]

Don't get yourself worked up in coulda/shoulda/if only.

FWIW, I only brought up coulda/woulda/shoulda because the OP is a hypocrite.

She sent them emails. That is how I know what was said and when. She also was a prolific writer and kept an electronic journal. She wrote some very positive entries about her work as a reserve officer and her respect for the officers she worked with. In fact, very little negative entries where written. As for why I was not aware of exactly how depressed she was, I live over 1000 miles away and she communicated mainly by email. She was a very tallanted writer and was able to hide behind her words. There is not a day that goes by that I don't ask myself why I did not realize she was so depressed or wonder what I could have done. Pointing fingers and placing blame seems to be the norm here. Sweeping problems under the rug by ignoring the real issue and refusing to learn from it, only makes for a lumpy rug. The problems are still there. Pointing fingers does nothing but build walls that impede communication and keep things status quo. Looking at what happened and learning from it, can't hurt. Doing nothing but blame one another can do nothing but hurt.

IMO, the OP should research further before pointing the fingers and jumping to conclusions. Has the OP contacted the persons involved who were supposedly negligent in preventing the tragedy? I doubt it. Something written later in a "diary" only reflects the feelings/emotions/recollections of the Author (victim) - and NOT necessarily what had actually transpired or the feelings/emotions/recollections of the other party/ies who were there.

Oh and +1000 on what RDS has been saying...

[InTheEnd]

FWIW, I only brought up coulda/woulda/shoulda because the OP is a hypocrite.

My comment is directed to the general public and the thread starter. Nothing can be done if someone doesn't want help and takes their own life. It is a cry for help for those who do not go through with it. The poster by the question posed is looking to seek blame on the agency where there is no blame.

[Tater]

I want to be sure this does not happen to any other family and try to push the police department to improve their training in the area of mental health issues so that officers understand that suicide is not a joke, people do not attempt suicide for "attention," and people who are depressed are NOT crazy. All I want to know is if there are any ethical or legal obligations on their part. If so, every officer should be aware of them and if not, I feel there should be. Ignorance is not bliss, it can be deadly. I want to make something positive comes from this and am not interested in pointing fingers or trying to place blame. Also, just saying "she is an adult.." is ignorant and a rather juvenile response to a very serious subject.

I work in a county with close to 4 million people residing in it. We have more than one of these suicides each and every day. Just what training would you try to push on a Department my size that we don't already get? Why is it us who are ignorant when a tragedy like this happens, and where was the family? If they couldn't or wouldn't have been able to see the problem, why is that we, the "ignorant" police are the reason it happened? Why didn't we see the warning signs? I get so tired of being to blame for other peoples problems. When are people going to start taking responsibilities for their own actions. The police are not to blame here. As was said previously, someone, somewhere needs to spend some time looking in the mirror. In all reality, I don't really care what you think I should be or what I should know. That is really not your call. I am not a baby sitter, and I don't have time to sit around for hours on end every day, because someone like you doesn't think I am trained enough to do my job. I have been doing this for over 25 years now, so I don't really need you telling me what I should have or could have done. We have the most thankless job in the world, and I don't need to come on here and read where we are being called ignorant because of something that happened when a family member had the same power to stop this from happening. By the way, who on here made this issue out to be a joke?

[retdetsgt]

Here's some observations I've made over the years.

People who actually commit suicide rarely have previous attempts.

Of course, depression is involved, but there are two types, clinical and that induced by alcohol/drug abuse. The latter usually shoot themselves in the head in order to turn off their brain. A wise man once told me that if someone else says to you what you say to yourself, you'd have to kill them. That's pretty much the gist of it.

The trigger is almost always something small. People can generally handle the big problems in life, but the little ones seem to push them over the edge. I've seen it be the loss of a house key, misplacing of 20 dollar bill and a car that wouldn't start, just as examples. It seems that these events, which seem tiny to others, take the person to the point that suicide is a viable option to a chain of recent events. An exception to all this is the person who has a terminal illness who just wants to end the pain. They're in a totally different catagory.

On the contrary, people that attempt suicide more than not, have a history of same. They also often provide themselves with a safety net. It's fairly common for someone to take an overdose of pills and then call someone (or vice versa). They go to a public place where they know they will attract attention and wait for someone to talk them out of it. I suppose there are cases where it's happened, but I've never known of anyone completely the act after they've received sufficient attention.

Attempting is certainly a cry for help, but rather than actually go seek therapy or professional assistance, many people seem to prefer to have others fawn over them and assume them they are okay. Sometimes though they misjudge the response of others or screw up accidently carry it through. Their ego doesn't allow them to believe that people actual get sick of their antics and no longer believe them.

When I was a brand new cop, I was at an attempt suicide where some guy was up on one of our bridges threatening to jump. He'd kept the attention of the police and others for well over an hour. I couldn't believe my eyes when some old grizzled cop pulled his S&W Model 10 and pointed it at the jumper and shouted, "Come down here right now or I'll blow your *** away!". I was shocked in my brand new uniform with the price tags still on it. But what really surprised me was the guy came down! He believed the old cop and obviously didn't wanna die!:eek::D

[mcsap]

She sent them emails. What was the exact wording of these emails ?That is how I know what was said and when. She also was a prolific writer and kept an electronic journal. She wrote some very positive entries about her work as a reserve officer and her respect for the officers she worked with. In fact, very little negative entries where written. As for why I was not aware of exactly how depressed she was, I live over 1000 miles away and she communicated mainly by email. She was a very tallanted writer and was able to hide behind her words.Meaning she didn't come right out and directly state ( I want to kill myself " ??? There is not a day that goes by that I don't ask myself why I did not realize she was so depressed or wonder what I could have done. Did it occur to you in all of your training that the officers "involved" were in the exact same boat as you ?? Pointing fingers and placing blame seems to be the norm here. Sweeping problems under the rug by ignoring the real issue and refusing to learn from it, only makes for a lumpy rug. The problems are still there. Pointing fingers does nothing but build walls that impede communication and keep things status quo. Looking at what happened and learning from it, can't hurt. Doing nothing but blame one another can do nothing but hurt.

You seem to be doing a lot of finger pointing and yet you are either artrfully or ignorantly not answering my specific questions. If she flat out said she was going to kill herself , that is one thing. If she is a such a creative writer and hid the true meaning of her own demise behind flowery and flowing speech....few of us have a PHD in linguistics. I cannot act upon vague references to someone stating ..." I am not happy with life right now " or " I dont know if I can go on".

I can make a general referral but I certainly cannot commit someone for a mental eval without sound reasoning.

[Creeker]

I've seen my quota of useless death and suicide comes in numerous and sundry forms, even down to those who commit stupid stunts that end in their own deaths, of which we could all give nefarious examples....

The only thing I have to ad for contemplation is that in my state... since you don't mention your own state or where it happened ... LE can only do much after a suicide has been attempted. Prior to that, the family has the responsibility and can petition Family Court to intercede and have the "victim" in the case involuntarily committed and examined if they won't go willingly.

I am sorry for your loss. In your grief, don't lash out at others.

In my state, our ESP is broken and hasn't been budgeted for repair, either.