Use of Force by the Police

[kimber]

I've been flipping through my books, cramming for finals, and I came across a chart of the type of forces used by police and the rate the forces are used per one thousand officers. I was startled by how often one unholstered thier weapon. The most popular forces used were handcuffs/leg restraints, bodily force, and come-alongs. The next on the chart was unholstering weapon, which was listed as a rate of 129.9 per 1000 officers. I thought it would have been more. What are the reasons in which you can hold one at gun point, during a call?

[R1364]

hold at gun point or have the weapon out? Im not sure about other places but its not a use of force until the weapon is being POINTED at someone. I can have my weapon out and it not be reported.

Obviously any deadly force situation.
anytime the officer feels his life may be in GRAVE danger (resonable is a key part of that)
anytime someone has run from you and you have them on the ground covering them.
just to name a few.

[R1364]

the three examples i gave were to have the weapon pointed at someone. just to clearify

[mcsap]

An officer can draw at any perceived or real serious injury/deadly force situation. From entering a house in which a burglar alarm came in via an unsecured door ( even if no signs of froced entry) up to an including the visible presence of a person creating the aforementioned threat(s).

[K-9MALY]

I have testified in court a few times for various offenses, and inevitably the limp wristed attorneys always ask why I felt the need to point my weapon at his poor misunderstood client.

All I ever reply is "I feared for my life." I have exasparated every defense attorney with that statement thus far. A couple of the good ones will persist and twist asking me to clarify or add reasons to the five word rationale. I never do, and sit there until they move on. I was told that by my much beloved firearms instructor in the police academy, and I adhere to it still.
I learned to never help the defense with colorful answers and opinions early on. I have had my *** handed to me on the stand early on, and it makes you want to crawl under a rock and suck your thumb.

[kimber]

Thank you K-9. I'll keep this in mind when I become an LEO.

[mcsap]

We had an hou long standoff with a 15 yr old PUNK who locked himself and his girlfriend ( willingly with him) in her bedroom and refused to come out. He made repeated threats to kill us and had 2 large butcher knives that he showed us. We went back and forth with him and finally the girlfriend wanted to come out to get cigarettes from another bedroom.

I told her " sure you can come out, we don't have a problem with you". Sure enough , she came out and entered the room where I was taking cover. She picked up the cigs and turned to go back to the boyfriend when I threw her onto the bed to stop her. She SCREAMED and he came charging down the hall with both knives raised. He entered the room where I was holding her back and took a grand stab at a fellow officer before being tackled and heavily piled on.

Later in court , I testified to the scene in it's entirety including a very dramatic statement of ..." counselor, I had every right and lawful reason to shoot and kill your client, he should be glad that here is here in the courtroom today instead of being dead !" This sent the defense lawyer into quite a tizzy. He ranted quite a bit after that and even the next day as the trial continued. I wasn't needed the next day but the judge warned him and when that didn't work, made the lawyer apologize to me in open court. ( I wish I would have been there to see/hear it)

Sidenote, this lawyers mother was arrested for embezzling 65 grand from a church and did 2 years federally. He himself absconded with about 30 grand in escrow money and hasn't been seen in about 3 years. He is in NCIC with NATIONWIDE extradition.

[State Boy]

When can you unholster your weapon? When ever you feel like you may need to use it. You may go weeks, months or years with out ever unholstering your weapon. Or you may find your self having a really bad day and unholstering it several times in a shift. With police work you never really know how your day is going to go but always remember that the most important thing is that you go home at the end of the day. If that means drawing your weapon and pointing it at some A-hole who's acting stupid, then so be it.

Speaking of that chart, if you look at it closely, one of the first levels of force is officer presence. How you look in uniform and carry your self goes a long with bad guys.

[Samuel]

Unholstering and detaining at gunpoint are two very different things.

Take statistics with a carton full of Morton's finest... IMO, they don't mean jack sh1t, especially if You ever happen to be the one in a million statistic... I also highly doubt that the numbers/percentages you were looking at are anywhere close to remotely being near accurate.

[State Boy]

[QUOTE=Samuel]Unholstering and detaining at gunpoint are two very different things.

Could not agree more. That reminds me. I know of a Central KY agency that considers pointing your weapon at some one a use of force and require a use of force report on the incident. That is absolutely ridiculous! IMO that discourages officer from pointing their weapon at any one.

Again IMO, if your going to unholster your weapon, you might as well point it at the SOB! They must have given you some reason to take it out in the first place.

[R1364]

Deleted by poster

[TPDHellhound]

Pointing your gun at someone isn't even covered in our use of force model. There's no "force" involved! If I were to speculate, it would be around the area of Physical Presence, however. But our policy doesn't say, "If the bad guy does this... you can point your gun at him." It is left completely up to the discretion of the officer. But it certainly must be justified!

[R1364]

Deleted by poster

[daNattyFatty]

We had an hou long standoff with a 15 yr old PUNK who locked himself and his girlfriend ( willingly with him) in her bedroom and refused to come out. He made repeated threats to kill us and had 2 large butcher knives that he showed us. We went back and forth with him and finally the girlfriend wanted to come out to get cigarettes from another bedroom.

I told her " sure you can come out, we don't have a problem with you". Sure enough , she came out and entered the room where I was taking cover. She picked up the cigs and turned to go back to the boyfriend when I threw her onto the bed to stop her. She SCREAMED and he came charging down the hall with both knives raised. He entered the room where I was holding her back and took a grand stab at a fellow officer before being tackled and heavily piled on.

Later in court , I testified to the scene in it's entirety including a very dramatic statement of ..." counselor, I had every right and lawful reason to shoot and kill your client, he should be glad that here is here in the courtroom today instead of being dead !" This sent the defense lawyer into quite a tizzy. He ranted quite a bit after that and even the next day as the trial continued. I wasn't needed the next day but the judge warned him and when that didn't work, made the lawyer apologize to me in open court. ( I wish I would have been there to see/hear it)

Sidenote, this lawyers mother was arrested for embezzling 65 grand from a church and did 2 years federally. He himself absconded with about 30 grand in escrow money and hasn't been seen in about 3 years. He is in NCIC with NATIONWIDE extradition.

phew. verbal threats to kill you and your fellow officers, and then him charging you with the knives......yeah, i'd have shot him.

[hscop]

Samuel said it right. I dont know of one department that keeps statistics of "breaking leather." Its a daily occurrance for almost every officer here and neighboring agencies, so the numbers are obvously wrong.