What do LEO's think about civilian CCW?

[bsbrum]

I apologize in advance if this topic has been beaten to death, I did a couple searches and didn't find quite what I am curious about.

I am not a LEO, but a legally armed (trained and experienced -- now 37) citizen, and I am always curious about what officers think about this topic.

I love the idea that other citizens are watching my back, and I am glad to return the favor... God forbid that I should ever have to use lethal force to protect myself or someone else.

Sincerely! bsbrum

[Recondo]

Bsbrum,
..this topic has been raised before & has raised some serious debate on some specific topics. In general, it breaks down like this from what I have followed/interacted:
In area's where Concealed Permits have been around or issued for any number of yrs, they seem to be readily accepted & encountered by LE, although most would not look at a "joe blow CCW holder" as someone who has his/her back on the street..LEO's normally have plenty of backup &/or other officer support without involving armed citizens for such duties. I am sure it has happened, but its a rarity. I think your cell phone would be more welcome then your hand gun.
On the other hand, in areas/states, where permits are just now, or have been only recently issued, LEO's seem to be a bit more edgy when encountering an armed citizen who is a permit holder, some down right hostile towards it, simply because they are not used to them & those they have encountered up until that point where "illegally" concealing a weapon - so laws & training dictated how things played out at that point.
I do know, all in all, NO officer (or even civilians for that matter) wants to be surprised by any armed person, legal or otherwise, so if you are going to make or have direct contact with a LEO (during traiffic stop, or similar) the overwhelming concensus is to inform the officer 1st & foremost of your weapon & your permit status, keep your hands visable & follow all directions concerning your weapon/actions given to you by the officer.
Your idea of backup to a LEO/Citizen is not a good one, maybe I mis-understood your meaning of your question/statement & I appologize if I have, but if you draw your weapon in an attempt to "back-up" a cop during a situation you are not in control of, in full knowledge about or not actually a direct part of, you may end up dead, ..shot by the good guy or the bad guy, you might be presummed to be THE bad guy or end up seriously on the wrong side of the law. I am a CCW holder as well with extensive firearms training (mil & civilian), that weapon to which you have a permit to carry concealed is for your defense & the defense of others whose life maybe in serious, immediate, no "ifs, and's or But's" danger. it is your hiden ace in the card game life throws our way sometimes.
So to me, short of an officer going down hard right in front of me & the obvious indicators by the perpetrator that this LEO, myself,my family or those immediatley around me are going to also be killed, my weapon stays holstered or hiden, ready, but not so obviously ready to cause concern or confusion to any LEO's, bad guys or other armed citizens. If this happens, & like you said, lets hope it never does, then there would not be a court in the country that would hold you responsable for defending an downed officer or love one from immediate death, anything short of that however has shown to be a very grey area in the courts, open for lawsuits, yes even by the bad guy or his family & criminal penalties even when the best of intentions were ment.
As far as other citizens getting my back if things go south for me one day, "maybe", but very unlikely, chances are you will be all alone, most others will panic, run away or simply stand by & watch, but thats why I carry in the 1st place..
Recondo

[bsbrum]

Recondo-

First, thanks for the reply.

Second...

Your idea of backup to a LEO/Citizen is not a good one, maybe I mis-understood your meaning of your question/statement & I appologize if I have.

No, that's not what I meant, apology accepted. :-) I would never insinuate myself into a law enforcement situation, only a fool would... unless it was absolutely clear that an innocent person was going to suffer grave concequences otherwise.

it is your hiden ace in the card game life throws our way sometimes...

...As far as other citizens getting my back if things go south for me one day, "maybe", but very unlikely, chances are you will be all alone, most others will panic, run away or simply stand by & watch, but thats why I carry in the 1st place..
Recondo

Exactly.

In terms of my "got my back" statement, I take personal responsibility very seriously; my job, my family, my safety. I deeply respect L.E. and military personnel, and the fact that they routinely put their lives on the line for my safety. There is a deterrent effect of police presence, and when that presence is not there (the most likely time a bad guy will do something bad), that's when the gravy hits the biscuits... that's when I have a small degree of comfort that there are others out there like me... but I do not bank on it. It's just a small bit of comfort, and that's all I meant.

Thanks again!

--bsbrum

[Recondo]

Bsbrum,
Sorry again if I mis-understood your statement. I guess I have met some guys who go out, obtain thier permit & then want to act like they will play diehard, guns blazing movie star hero if/when the rain cloud burst, simply because they are now legally armed. Not saying that is your case in anyway, you sound like your right on track, but like with everything else, they are those types out there...You know the ones I mean..I think these types have given way to many LEO's & agentcies being not in favor of such permits, probably because they are the ones that get into trouble & then try to flash a permit as a get out of jail free card. But I am like you, I carry discretly for my own defense, my current line of work, I must intermix with alot of bottom feeders & creepy jerks, often in isolated areas/situations. I want to think most permit holders are similar in thinking, none of my LEO friends ever have a problem with guys like us from what I know of, in fact I was once "thanked" for carrying when me & my leo buddy were in a rather ruff area & he was unarmed. I later informed him, as we discussed the days events, that I had been armed the whole time..it made him feel better knowing that between the 2 of us, there was at least 1 firearm for defense, but luckly all went ok that day! Take it all lite,
Recondo

[Scruit]

If I saw a cop having a tough time with a subject then I certainly wouldn't approach them with my gun in my hand... :eek:

Instead I would move to a position where the officer can hear me but not close enough that he has to worry about if I'm going to attack him... and say something like; "Officer, I got your six if you need it."

Never been in that situation though, so I don't know how that would be taken... Either way my gun stays put away. It would only come out of the suspect is clearly about to use deadly force on the officer, and that would be to save the officer's life.

[Charlie]

Personally, I think it is a good idea... as long as the citizen in question has had sufficient training & education concerning a variety of issues and responsibilities that go along with carrying a gun. Course, we can really discuss this issue with a variety of "what if's" but generally speaking adn to keep my point short,... law enforcement officers cannot be everywhere nor can they always respond to a call for help at a moment's notice either. I think there is, without a doubt, situations where a citizen has a legitimate right to be able to defend themselves under justifiable circumstances with a deadly force option such as a firearm. But again, for emphasis, hopefully the citizen in question has had the training and education that goes along with carrying a firearm. Especially in this day and age where everyone likes to sue everyone. Carrying a firearm is an awesome responsibility. And I think that any law abiding citizen should be able to responsibly exercise this option if they choose to do so...
--
Charlie

[Recondo]

I have been in a situation where I attempted to back an officer up, single K9 unit in my front yard at 2-something AM looking for the driver of the stolen truck, this guy dumped in my neighbors driveway after a forced entry of another home where he stole a bunch of stuff & put it in the pickup bed..My presence was not well received,(at least by this officer) I announced my presence w/ flashlight in hand,.45 tucked in my sweat pants under my t-shirt, I annouced who I was, etc, I tried to inform the officer of the points on my property where there were "hiding places" & where my 2 dogs had indicated something was at, by thier behavior. I think, at least in that situation,I simply gave the officer something else to worry about or concentrate on (my presence) and he didnt appreciate the fact I was on his side or had his backup & might be trying to give him info for his own safety, I simply complicated his thinking. In the end, his radio went out & he had the neighbor call 9-11 to status him thru the 9-11 dispatcher, I returned to my front pourch & let him have at it, more units arrived & the K9 lead to right where I had indicated this clown might be, his buddy was caught 2 streets over & he was armed. I think if I had had my weapon out that nite, I might have ended up face down in my own yard & the perps would have gotten away or worse. I guess there is a time to act & a time to NOT act, I felt my actions helped this LEO at a time when he was alone & without knowldge of my properties dark spots,etc, my neighbors did as well, but he saw it differently...which has changed the way I think about backing a LEO up now, unless it is immediate life or death, eitherway, if you have to put someone down, for what ever reason, be prepared for possible arrest or at least detention until things get sorted out & possible law suit by someone down the road a bit, right or wrong, thats just how things seem to play out in todays world..
Recondo

[mcsap]

A responsible citizen who knows how and when to use a firearm is an asset to the community.

[warlock]

Common-sense and sound judgement skills are all that is necessary.

If I saw an officer being completely overwhelmed I would absolutely consider stepping in to help...as long as my stepping in wouldn't further endanger that officer.

Would completely depend on the situation. I would be loathe to draw my weapon unless it was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. Through drawing a weapon, I could be easily misindentified as another perp by other LEOs arriving on the scene.

[bsbrum]

MSCAP, Charlie, et al-

A responsible citizen who knows how and when to use a firearm is an asset to the community.

That's how I feel. Was curious about the L.E. perspective, and this is really one of those things where the answer depends on who you ask. It is such a complex issue, with so many variables. I can see how state/municipality can also affect the opinions.

I've read horror stories like a CCW holder placing his pistol on the dashboard of his car during an escalating traffic situation, his thought was that it would diffuse the situation by forcing the other guy to back off. I've also heard many stories of people saving others lives. The morons tend to make the news.

Stress and pressure will bring the true inner person out... and if that person is a moron, God help us all! ;)

Thanks again to everyone. Enlightening answers!

[Recondo]

>>I've read horror stories like a CCW holder placing his pistol on the dashboard of his car during an escalating traffic situation, his thought was that it would diffuse the situation by forcing the other guy to back off. I've also heard many stories of people saving others lives. The morons tend to make the news.<<

No doubt there, in WA. thats considered "brandishing to intimidate" I believe, its cause for life long revocation of your permit & possible legal charges..it probably could get you shot should the other driver be so armed as well & sees the gun come up all to sudden..then again if a traffic altercation has degressed to the point the guy is at your window & in your face, you messed up way before that point anyhow..lol
Recondo

[Charlie]

I recall reading something sometime ago from a Calibre Press bulletin talking in general about off-duty cops getting involved in "things" off-duty. I regret I don't recall more details from the bulletin but one thing I do recall is it said something like: "...if you get involved in something off-duty and you have your gun out, have the expectation that it is a possibility you're going to get shot!" If you think about that statement, it makes a lot of sense! And I would say the thought could be applied to either a CCW holder and/or a cop!

Stuff can happen out there and deciding whether or not to involve yourself into something and displaying your weapon can potentially do more harm than good. You'll likely have responding officers IN UNIFORM who have to quickly decide who is the good guys and the bad guys. And at the moment, everyone is likely going to be construed as the bad guys till things are sorted out. A potential case of SERIOUS MISTAKEN IDENTITY!!!

As for how or why cops might react to a CCW holder as their back up, it'll depend upon the overall circumstances. BUT, if you assume the role of a cop, what would you possibly think about someone showing up at the scene, someone you know nothing about, with a gun in possession? What would you realisitically think in perhaps most cases? Something to think about...

Bottom line in my book, without a doubt, there are circumstances where someone needs to act upon a situation they're in or, come to the aid of an officer. God willing, if an officer is in dire need of help, do whatever you can to help... Aside from that issue, there are times out there, (And this applies to off-duty cops as well), where sometimes the best thing you can do is be the best witness possible. Dial 9-1-1 and report what you're seeing and give as much information as you can possible. Remember, depending upon the overall circumstances, mistaken identity can potentially become a tragedy. Think before you act and hopefully the previous training you've received will also be a source for you to draw upon to make the best practical decisions concerning the situation you're faced with.

There are no "one size fits all" solutions or suggestions I can offer concerning this complex issue. I can only echo what's already been said and that is simply utilize some common sense and good judgment before you act. Again, carrying a firearm, whether or not you're a cop, is an awesome responsibility and burden.

Just an opinion...
--
Charlie

[Recondo]

Well Put Charlie,
goes back to my statement... "I think your cell phone would be more welcome then your hand gun."
...it sucks to be the good guy living in a ever increasingly bad world huh!
Recondo

[sgtbear111]

Good judgement is essential. I am familiar with instances where a permitted motorist stopped to assist an officer who was overpowered, being beaten, and struggling to keep his duty weapon from being taken by the suspect (we all knows what happens as soon as the weapon is taken by the suspect). This citizen hero left the gun in his vehicle, assisted the officer with overpowering the suspect, and making the arrest. Why no gun? This person thought out the 'what-ifs' long before: 1) local police seeing him, an unknown, with a gun, where an officer is down; 2) bringing the gun into the struggle may be another weapon the suspect will go after - with the usual consequences.
Separate incident, citizen-hero assisted wounded officer (officer holding gun on suspect, suspect surrendering) by taking officer's cuffs and securing suspect.

People who have CWP/CCW are seldom the subject of an arrest. They may be the help needed to save someone's life. The fact they have gone thru the process/training/BI, indicates this is a personal choice given some thought over time. It isnt just the fact they are armed, it is much more that they are fundamentally people of courage and good character who perform a lifesaving deed.

Mindset. Character. Courage, Judgement.

[bsbrum]

Charlie, sgtbear111...

Nicely stated.

Prior to obtaining my CCW I struggled with the "when and where" aspect of carrying a firearm. I was originally thinking that I would consider where I was going, possible threat, and then carry or not depending on the situation. My CCW instructor did a good job of disabusing me of that notion.

He likened it to wearing a seatbelt, you either do it or you don't. You can't predict when and where you'll need it. If you selectively carry, you may need it and it won't be there ... it's just a bad practice. Obviously there are places it is unsafe (breaking up a fight), illegal (schools), or just plain stupid (in an airport/court house) to carry, and you have to make that assessment.

That first instructer also influenced my perception of who carries, and why they do. I really thought it was a fringe / nut thing. Who would need to carry a firearm for "safety!?" That first class really pinned me to the back of my seat. After reading Masaad Ayoob's _In_The_Gravest_Extreme_, I was convinced that the responsibility and liability of "packing" was something that I was ready for and capable to undertake. I've also come to appreciate the other citizens and officers of the law who make this same commitment.

Good judgement is essential... Mindset. Character. Courage, Judgement.

I don't know about courage, I've never been tested, but my mindset is there. I hope I measure up in terms of character, and I pray that my judgement will be 100% when/if the time comes.

Thanks to all for the great feedback. There is a lot to consider, and I really appreciate the thoughtful responses!

-- bsbrum