question.......

[lebinky]

I have a couple of questions for the LEO's out there and anyone with any legal background. I work part-time as a bartender in a small pub. We don't have bouncers or doormen due to our size. The bartender on-duty pretty much handles everything. Our clientel is mostly middle-class, early 30's and up. Never have any problems with them, but on rare occasions we have had to deal some drunken losers, or the "just turned 21 and wanna get drunk and start a fight" type of individual. Anyway enough background, here are my questions:

1. If an employee of the bar (bartender/bouncer) has to use force to get an unruly person to leave the bar can the employee be charged with assualt or any other type of charge?

2. Can a bartender be charged with serving a minor if they have ID'd the person and the underage drinker showed them a fake ID, which the bartender believed to be valid? We had a big problem with this last year because some DMV workers were selling valid ID's to minors.

3. In the past in order to avoid a physical confrontation I have told drunks this " I have already asked you to leave once and the police have been called. If you continue to refuse I will file trespassing charges against you when the police arrive." This usally gets them out the door and don't even need to call the police. Just wondering if I can really file charges or am I just bull****ting them?

Sorry this was so long and thanks for any answers you guys can give me.

[Scruit]

lebinky,

Gooid questions... It would help if you would tell is which country/state/province etc you are talking about as the laws in these situations (especially trespassing) are very different across different jurisdictions.

Dunno about using force to remove someone. Of course it happens every single day of the week a thousand times over, but it's apparently rare to see any complaint by the ejected person taken seriously. I suspect it would be safest to have the bouncer play a purely defensive role (breaking up fights, but not starting them. Preventing entry to the building, but not initiating forceful exit) and leave the actual physcial ejection of unrulies to the police, unless they advise you different.

Fake IDs... In most cases the prosecution must show that there was 'intent'. Intent can either be outright intent to sell beer to a minor (you KNOW they are under 18) or intent sometimes can be inferred from things like Regligence, Recklessness. (My personal favourite is Transferred Malice, but that's totally irrelevant to this thread) You'd have to read the specific law in your jusrisdiction and determine if it is an actual crime, or if it is a civil penalty (ie punished by some sanction against the establishment's alcohol license). Also see if the crime specifically mentions acts such as 'knew the ID to be fake' etc.

In the case of DMV employees selling fake IDs it would be very easy to make a case that it was not reasonable to expect the bartender to know the id was fake... If it is a crime that requires proof of intent, and abnsent any specific wording to the contrary, then this should cast significant doubt on any claims of intent, thereby making a conviction unlikely.

In the trespassing question, again you'd have to see you local laws, but it seems fairly common practice to serve a trespass notice on a person who is found to be shoplifting etc. Any subsequent visit to that building can result in immediate arrest without any other cause. I don't believe you can withdraw a person's welcome and immediately have them subject to arrest for trespass - however as you already know the police will generally assist you with a person refusing to leave.

[lebinky]

Thanks for the reply Scruit. We have a really good relationship with the officers that patrol our area. Not only do alot of them stop in for a cold one when they are off duty, but they regularly do foot patrols through our area. and will stop in, say hi, and make sure everythings okay. The vendors in our area appreciate this greatly and the officers have our full support.

If it helps anyone else replying to this thread I am located in Northern Kentucky.

[Stump]

I have seen bouncers charged with assault - it all depends on if they go over the line with their actions. Being a bouncer does not give you carte blanche to go nuts on someone. It all depends on the circumstances.
I don't know Kentucky law, but I know that when I had people refusing to leave my business, I couldn't have them arrested for trespassing unless they came back again after they originally left. Of course, there are different circumstances to that. Cops can pretty much charge someone with trespass if they still refuse to leave once the cops get there.

[Lawson]

I am orginally from N. Kentucky, but dont know anything about the laws there, Here in WA, I would see the bouncer legally being able to oust them from the bar if waiting for Police could potentially cause serious damage to the facility or to other persons.

With the Fake IDs, they would be charged, not you. If they provided what you believed to be a legal form of ID, you cannot be blamed. [However, if they are like, 14, and present an ID with them being 22, you may have some problems :D ]

Here, you may get a tresspass warrant on anyone for anything. If I run a business and I dont like the look of your face I can get a tresspass warrant. If you run a business, it is YOUR business and YOUR Property, you can let whoever you want in.

[mcsap]

Threaten to call the cops and if they don't leave, do so. We get paid to "assist" drunks and others on their way, you don't.

[Bryan]

Bar protest grows

U of W students join fight for staff training
By KEVIN ENGSTROM, STAFF REPORTER

University of Winnipeg students have joined the effort to pressure the Doer government into beefing up training for bar bouncers. The University of Winnipeg Students' Association threw its support behind a Red River College student plan yesterday that is lobbying for provincial training and certification of bar security staff. Many U of W students are concerned about the safety at Winnipeg nightclubs because of two recent deaths at Canad Inn bars that have seen criminal charges laid against bouncers, said student president Chris Minaker.

'DON'T FEEL SAFE'

"Students just don't feel safe going to the bar anymore," he said. "The two deaths within the past month or so is something that is definitely on a lot of students' minds here."

Denis Vandal, 49, died after a scuffle with staff at Silverado's in March. James Hansen, 28, died after a confrontation with bar staff at The Beach in February. Both bars are owned by Canad Inns and four of the company's employees have been charged with manslaughter in the incidents.

The company was targeted last weekend by the Red River College Students Association, who called for a boycott of Canad Inn bars. All nightclubs should better screen potential employees and improve training programs for bouncers, said Jeff Boivin, station manager for college radio station CMOR.

Student groups are ignoring the fact Canad Inns supports their proposed legislation, said Bryon Temoshawski, the company's executive vice-president.

"We would like things to move a lot quicker, but that's up to the government," he said.

There are no plans for the University of Manitoba Students Union to join the lobbying effort, said president Shawn Alvis.
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Winnip.../07/411360.htm