Police Jobs
RealPolice Forums
Police Gear
Police Agencies

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18

Thread: Trespass Notice

  1. #1
    Ortho is offline Junior Member Ortho is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Jan 13th, 2017
    Posts
    10

    Post Trespass Notice

    Thank you for the great forum, found it browsing for some answers. Here are the questions and I 'll try to be brief

    I attempted to return a defective item to a big retail store. The store was going out of business and that negatively contributed to my situation as employees of the store were clearly disgruntled. While talking to people at the register I was told that the store changed the policies since I bought the item and I would not be able to return/exchange/get store credit.
    Some guy (apparently one of employees) grabs my item walks in a direction of the exit. As I realized the situation is going out control, I started recording video to have some evidence. I asked the guy who he is, what he wants, etc. He refuses to say who he is and walks away. I return to the register.
    The guy returns with the phone in his hand and makes sudden moves with his palm into my face with his hand, while I hear him saying “security is coming?” Then he says “the guy touched me twice” , or “PD is coming , nice” . He attempts to provoke me into physical confrontation, I step back and warn him to stay at distance. My call to wait for security.
    Security arrives, I stay away from that guy. I answer security questions, explain what happened. I present my receipt, etc.
    I see police arriving to the scene. Standing in a distance, while I talk to security. Then, I am blocked by the security, while I hear another security guard telling police something “I do not know if you will charge him, we will press Trespass charges.
    Police officer comes to me, he says “They want to trespass you”, I need an ID from you, I give him an ID. When He asked where my car is and I say if I could walk in that direction, he ignores that and insists I walk in the opposite direction. As far as I understood, I was detained by the police officer so private property would issue a trespass notice.
    Police officer gives my ID to security Guard, she fills the trespass notice on the police blank. At the same time police officer asks if I have a contact phone number, which I provided, then he shares my phone number with the security guard, even though I express concern about that.
    The trespass notice is filled, I was asked to sign and when I said I would like to read it first, that request was declined. I said, I would sign it when I am in my car ( my family was there) . I was told “OK” escorted to my car, the notice already had “refused” in the signature section.
    The notice says: “Improper Conduct, refusing to leave the store, arguing.”
    I also discovered that one of the security guards, was former police officer and he leads the security in that mall.
    That is basically the whole story. There are more facts and details, but to get unbiased opinion, it makes sense not to mention that. I would be glad to provide more details if that helps .
    I think it is relevant to mention, I was upset and not aggressive and initially decided to wait for security arrival as the best logical step toward the conflict resolution.

    Here are my questions to the police:
    1. Why would it be necessary to have police present to issue a trespass notice, while a private property can do so? What would require 4 police officers to arrive at the scene?

    2. Per later conversation with police sergeant, my detention by security guards, was “like citizen arrest”. By the law of my state, the citizen arrest is legal when someone witnesses a serious crime, etc. Should police investigate the reason of “citizen arrest” or continue detention not based on any evidence?

    3. What law, allows police officers to share someone’s PII, personal identifiable information, with a third party (security guards) without PII owner consent?

    4. This is more ethical question, but several times when I attempted to have conversation with city officials, I was told “but you did not get arrested”, implying I should feel very lucky. Any comments on that?

    I appreciate any comments on that and would be glad to get any opinion.

  2. #2
    TEXASCOP is offline Crime Fighter TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    Jul 3rd, 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,411
    1. Why would it be necessary to have police present to issue a trespass notice, while a private property can do so? What would require 4 police officers to arrive at the scene?
    In my city, we also issue the trespass notices, ones issued by citizens are not enforceable. Two cops is better than one, three is better than 2, 4 is better than 3, cant say why 4 showed up though but it can happen if they are all in the same area when the call comes out

    2. Per later conversation with police sergeant, my detention by security guards, was “like citizen arrest”. By the law of my state, the citizen arrest is legal when someone witnesses a serious crime, etc. Should police investigate the reason of “citizen arrest” or continue detention not based on any evidence?
    Did they hand cuff you and physically force you to stay? Or did they ask you to stay which you did? If you stayed per their request, you did that of your own free will.

    3. What law, allows police officers to share someone’s PII, personal identifiable information, with a third party (security guards) without PII owner consent?
    eral tim

    They are agents of the victim (retail store) they are entitled to keep a record of who they have trespassed.

    4. This is more ethical question, but seves when I attempted to have conversation with city officials, I was told “but you did not get arrested”, implying I should feel very lucky. Any comments on that?
    It sounds like they asked you to leave and you refused, which is a crime. They could have sworn out a statement and charged you
    ...
    Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God -Matthew 5:9-

  3. #3
    TEXASCOP is offline Crime Fighter TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    Jul 3rd, 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,411
    How it should have gone.

    You: "Do y'all take returns?"
    Employee: "No our policy has changed due to going out of business"
    You: " Oh, okay then, thank you"
    Employee: "I'm sorry I couldn't be more help have a nice day"
    You: Walk out of store
    Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God -Matthew 5:9-

  4. #4
    Ortho is offline Junior Member Ortho is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Jan 13th, 2017
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by TEXASCOP View Post
    ...
    Thank you for the comments, TexasCop, I will reply to your comments, and then I will add some details.

    1. Trespass Notices issued by citizens are not enforceable.

    Ortho: Not true. According to local police, they are valid as ones issued by the police. Per police in my city, they are enforceable and have the same legal value. Let us be honest, policies are issued as an intimidation tool. Piece of paper cannot stop someone, otherwise we would live in a perfect world.

    2. Did they hand cuff you and physically force you to stay? Or did they ask you to stay which you did? If you stayed per their request, you did that of your own free will.

    Ortho: There was no reason to hand cuff me, nor to force me to stay. I am a law-abiding citizen, and I am in that age group where crime rate is minimal. I usually shop online, be at that place was an accident and big mistake. You would rarely see my type in the malls.

    Here is beginning part of my communication with the police officer:
    -------------------------------
    PO: Hey, <my first name> , so mall security said they want you to trespass from the mall
    Ortho: I am sorry?
    PO: They want to trespass you from the mall
    Ortho: I am sorry, what does that mean?
    PO: They do not want you to come back on the property. Al I need from you it is as simple as this, I need your ID, I will give you a form that say you can’t come back to the property <unclear>
    Ortho: Why is that?
    PO: Because it is a private property and they do not want you.
    Ortho: Ok you have to do what you have to do. <Give him my ID> . I do not want to break any law, if you think that is what I have to , I will do it.
    PO: Are you parked outside?
    Ortho: I am park on that side <point to that direction), so Il walk that way if you do not mind
    PO: Let’s walk outside to my car < shows opposite direction> I will issue a form saying you trespassed from the property.
    Ortho complies, walks in that direction shown by PO.
    -------------------------------

    3. They are agents of the victim (retail store) they are entitled to keep a record of who they have trespassed.

    Ortho: How has it been determined they are victim and I am not? Who has to determine that? Police did not do any investigation, nor asked me what happened. It was clear to the police I am recording the whole incident. What makes me a criminal? Being lonely citizen against the local system?


    4. It sounds like they asked you to leave and you refused, which is a crime. They could have sworn out a statement and charged you

    Ortho: False. Store Employee, Security Guards and Police Officer did not ask me to leave. Here is my conversation with disgruntled employee:
    -------------------------------
    I talk to the cashier asking for my options to return, exchange item or get a store credit. Someone approaches me from the back, grabs the item from the counter and walks away saying something about me and my mother.
    I follow the individual with my item and I start recording

    Ortho: Ok, this is < Name of the place and the city> and this gentleman clams to be a manager is he is stealing my item. Could you give it back? < I stay at the register and do not follow the employee>
    Employee: Could you turn off your phone?
    Ortho: Could you give it <item> back?
    Employee: Turn off your phone < from the distance>
    Ortho:
    No, I will put it on YouTube today

    Employee is nodding, comes back with the item.

    Employee: You have a good day, sir <does this imply asking me to leave?>
    Ortho: Put it <item> back where it was
    Employee: This is ok (sets item on the floor) that is where it was.
    Ortho: And tell me why you are not doing a return on this item?
    Employee: <angry> As you know and as I explained and you will turn that off.
    Ortho: No, no, I will not turn it off. I am in a public place and I can shoot the video
    Employee: all right (reaching for his phone)
    Ortho: Ok, what is happening here?
    Employee: Nothing, have a good day. Sir
    Ortho: What is your name?
    Employee: Thank you, sir. John Smith <we all know that is not true right?>

    Ortho is returning to the cash register to continue the conversation about options for defective item.
    -------------------------------

    Detail: I was recording the whole incident, the camera (phone) was at my stomach level all the time. I am right handed and phone is in my right hand.

  5. #5
    TEXASCOP is offline Crime Fighter TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    Jul 3rd, 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,411
    Well I guess you've been a cop longer than I have so you're right. In my state (Texas) prosecutors in my area want written trespass notice to be witnessed by sworn personnel. A hand written note from one citizen will not fly in court. So the "manager" just takes the item and walks off talking about your mother? There is much more to the story but ill bet from a fly on the wall's perspective, you were in the wrong. Regardless, them issuing a trespass was completely legal so I don't know what you're bent out of shape about. They likely trespassed you because you refused to turn off the camera phone inside their private property.
    Last edited by TEXASCOP; 01-14-17 at 03:26 AM.
    Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God -Matthew 5:9-

  6. #6
    Ortho is offline Junior Member Ortho is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Jan 13th, 2017
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by TEXASCOP View Post
    .
    Thank you for your prospective on who is right who is wrong, that is very valuable addition to my study.

    Some more questions:

    1. What could I have done differently in that situation? Would "I do not answer questions" method work?
    Security guards (property owners) used police as intimidation tool, do cops get paid for this?

    2. What does legally define an ID? Would any paper with my picture and name work?

  7. #7
    furetto7's Avatar
    furetto7 is offline Galloglaich furetto7 has a brilliant future furetto7 has a brilliant future furetto7 has a brilliant future furetto7 has a brilliant future furetto7 has a brilliant future furetto7 has a brilliant future furetto7 has a brilliant future furetto7 has a brilliant future furetto7 has a brilliant future furetto7 has a brilliant future furetto7 has a brilliant future
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    Oct 22nd, 2004
    Location
    Great State of Texas
    Posts
    146
    Part of this depends on what state you are in, like Texascop I am in the State of Texas.

    As far as ID requested by a Peace Officer it must be a government issued form of ID like a Driving license, state ID card, military ID or passport (there are others but that should give you an idea of what constitutes acceptable ID).

    As employees of a business, the security officers may summon a peace officer for assistance just as you as a private citizen can.

    This sounds to me like much ado about nothing.

  8. #8
    Ortho is offline Junior Member Ortho is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Jan 13th, 2017
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by furetto7 View Post
    This sounds to me like much ado about nothing.
    Yes, I agree with you on that, simple sentence from the mall security or police, saying “could you please leave now and deal with it later” would work just fine. However this would steer our conversation toward ethical part of the story. Let’s see some numbers

    Some private company (from Dallas, Texas by the way) bought this mall in 2013. There are numbers of trespass notices in those years:

    City population: 63000

    Internet data about crime rate: Overall crime rate of 16 per 1,000 residents, making the crime rate here near the average for all cities and towns of all sizes in America. According to our analysis of FBI crime data, your chance of becoming a victim of crime in Eden Prairie is 1 in 63

    Number of trespass notices Total for the city vs the mall

    2013: 309 vs 137 = 44%
    2014: 301 vs 165 = 55%
    2015: 374 vs 191 = 51%
    2016: 377 vs 152 = 40%

    Please note the actual number for the mall would be higher, since that mall has several physical addresses, but I would guesstimate not more than 5% addition.

    These are just numbers I got through the police department, mall issued trespass notices without police are not indicated (yes they are valid as police ones where I live).

  9. #9
    Ortho is offline Junior Member Ortho is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Jan 13th, 2017
    Posts
    10
    Oopps, I gave up the city, but I think it is Ok at this point. Eden Prairie, MN

    MN Statue

    629.37 WHEN PRIVATE PERSON MAY MAKE ARREST.

    A private person may arrest another:

    (1) for a public offense committed or attempted in the arresting person's presence;

    (2) when the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or

    (3) when a felony has in fact been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

  10. #10
    TEXASCOP is offline Crime Fighter TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot TEXASCOP posts a lot
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    Jul 3rd, 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,411
    In as few words as possible, what is your complaint?
    Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God -Matthew 5:9-

  11. #11
    Ortho is offline Junior Member Ortho is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Jan 13th, 2017
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by TEXASCOP View Post
    In as few words as possible, what is your complaint?
    Why was I stopped and had armed cops standing next to me holding their hands on the pistols? Is returning a defective item to a store is now illegal?

  12. #12
    Curt581's Avatar
    Curt581 is offline You betta check my record Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    Oct 22nd, 2004
    Posts
    2,615
    Quote Originally Posted by Ortho View Post
    Why was I stopped
    We don't know. We didn't stop you.

    Were you acting in a loud, boisterous or obnoxious manner which would tend to provoke a disturbance?

    and had armed cops standing next to me holding their hands on the pistols?
    It's a convenient place to rest our hands. I do it all the time. People get offended if we stick our hands down the front of our pants, so we had to find something else.

    Is returning a defective item to a store is now illegal?
    Returning an item is NOT illegal, but it IS against store policy. Provoking a disturbance and refusing to leave when you don't get your way, *IS* against the law.

  13. #13
    Ortho is offline Junior Member Ortho is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Jan 13th, 2017
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt581 View Post
    We don't know. We didn't stop you.

    Were you acting in a loud, boisterous or obnoxious manner which would tend to provoke a disturbance?



    It's a convenient place to rest our hands. I do it all the time. People get offended if we stick our hands down the front of our pants, so we had to find something else.



    Returning an item is NOT illegal, but it IS against store policy. Provoking a disturbance and refusing to leave when you don't get your way, *IS* against the law.

    Thanks for your input. I certainly understand your point, but that is not the case.

    If someone goes shopping and has to deal with the police, that store either has really sick policies. Not sure I completely understand police role there as well.

    I do not have any other explanation or could not find any applicable law.

    It is NOT normal to deal with armed people (police) when someone goes shopping (not to steal something, not to sell drugs, guns, not be involved in criminal activity). You may agree or disagree, everyone is entitled to his own opinion
    Last edited by Ortho; 01-16-17 at 04:26 PM.

  14. #14
    Curt581's Avatar
    Curt581 is offline You betta check my record Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot Curt581 posts a lot
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    Oct 22nd, 2004
    Posts
    2,615
    Just because you didn't actually commit a crime, doesn't mean a police presence was unnecessary. Just by being there, those officers may have diffused a situation that could have escalated. Like locks, we keep honest people honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ortho View Post
    It is NOT normal to deal with armed people (police) when someone goes shopping (not to steal something, not to sell drugs, guns, not be involved in criminal activity). You may agree or disagree, everyone is entitled to his own opinion
    Actually, it IS normal to deal with armed people. You probably walk past them every day. You just don't know they're armed.

    As for the police, we're people too ya know. The 'armed' part is incidental. With us, if you're not posing a threat, you have nothing to be concerned about in regards to the gun.
    Last edited by Curt581; 01-16-17 at 06:26 PM.

  15. #15
    Ortho is offline Junior Member Ortho is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Jan 13th, 2017
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt581 View Post
    Just because you didn't actually commit a crime, doesn't mean a police presence was unnecessary. Just by being there, those officers may have diffused a situation that could have escalated. Like locks, we keep honest people honest.



    Actually, it IS normal to deal with armed people. You probably walk past them every day. You just don't know they're armed.

    As for the police, we're people too ya know. The 'armed' part is incidental. With us, if you're not posing a threat, you have nothing to be concerned about in regards to the gun.
    We are going off-topic, but I cant resist to bringing some arguments to this conversation:

    This is a cop from the city where I had my incident. Sorry I can't provide you with URL, due to forum limitations , please google "muscle memory Eden Prairie". It would be interesting to hear what cops think about this incident. As I watched several videos, it sounds like there were two shots, not just one.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts