Shaken faith

[france04]

This is my first post so please forgive me if I'm not farmiliar with the rules of ettiquette yet. I specifically searched for a forum that I could ask the opinions of police officers about something that is really upsetting me and I ended up here.

I have always been a big supporter of law enforcement. Although I have no criminal record I've dealt with cops probably 50 different times in my life for everything from traffic stops (dozens of times...I'm a terrible driver), witnessing an accident, family disputes, reporting suspicious activity, etc. In every single one of these incidents the officers were totally professional. I get angry when I hear people criticize police because I think they have a really tough job for too little pay and appreciation.

However, I just found out yesterday that a friend of mine was killed by police. He actually died last August but we weren't extremely close so I didn't think anything of not hearing from him for awhile. Last weekend in my area a 23 year old kid died in custody after being arrested for a DUI. The local news covering this man's death brought up the death of another man during an arrest attempt last August by the same police department. This man was my friend, Jay Vestal (there are online articles about his death and a memorial site). I'm not going to go into all the details of what supposedly happened because I wasn't there and I'm not in a position to make any accusations.
Here is a link to the story:

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/san...ne/6567001.htm

This is obviously not the first story I've heard of possible excessive force and in the past whenever I've heard conflicting accounts by police and a criminal I tend to believe the police. I guess this is making me question if I've just always blindly accepted that the guy must have had it coming if he was beaten or killed by police and now I'm waking up or if my usual perception is clouded because this time it affects me. By no means do I think that the officers involved tried to kill Jay but I am thinking that they definately used excessive force. I know I'm not completely objective so I'd like to know how other police officers feel about this kind of situation.
Thanks.

[mcsap]

The initial report didn't include any statements by the police on scene or otherwise.

The man was a motorcycle "club" member. Most are not known for their lack of criminal history.

In my state, burglary IS a crime of violence even if the home was unoccupied.

A warrant is a warrant, if my computer says you have one and you "can't find the receipt", you are going for a ride.

As anyone knows, eyewitnesses can see many different things. This does not mean that I am automatically discrediting them. They need to be formally interviewed, the autopsy needs to be done along with the toxicology report and of course the individual officers need to be interviewed.

Although the media story is not favorable to the police, it certainly is no place to make any final judgement for or against anyone.

[france04]

I'm not disagreeing with Jay's obvious lack of respect for the law or of him being arrested for the warrant. When I met him I was a little intimidated by him and his friends on their motorcycles but I quickly found out that he was a really nice guy and my initial judgement was too harsh. Very polite and considerate. When my teenage daughter ran away he organized his buddies and they went out and found her and brought her home. Jay was a lesson for me in accepting people that are from totally different worlds than me. It's easy to just look at him as a criminal and forget that he has family and friend's (including two little boys) who loved him and are going to miss him. I know he did a lot of things wrong but none were death penalty offenses.

[Toeknee112]

I'm old and cranky and keeping my mouth shut :D

[france04]

"This happened over nine months ago. Just out of curiousity, what motivated you to bring it to this board today, and what are you looking to accomplish?"

I found out about it yesterday. When another man died in custody last weekend in San Luis Obispo, the local news brought up Jay's case. It was the first I had heard of his death. We were not extremely close friends, but I cared about him and I'm sad that he's gone. I'm not here to defend Jay's lifestyle because I have little ground to stand on in doing so. I'm also not here to place blame on anyone because I can't say I knew Jay well enough to insist he was not at fault. What I really want is to know what happened and why it happened but I don't think I'm ever going to know for sure. I came here because I wanted some opinions from police officers about Jay's case. I've always had a lot of respect for law enforcement and what happened to Jay is causing me to question what I have always believed. I'm not sure, maybe I wanted to reaffirm my faith or maybe I'm just sad that my friend is dead and he shouldn't be. If I wanted to yell and scream about what happened there are other sites where I'd get a lot more support but I have no desire to do so. If I'm not welcome here I'll leave.

[mcsap]

Since NOBODY here is likely to have ANY specific information about this case, we can only offer you our thoughts and perspectives from reading the link you posted.

May I suggest you go on the newspapers website and research the rest of the articles about this story for more information ?

By and large, police officers are not particularly fond of motorcycle gang members. They tend to be criminals with a violent criminal history. Not that I would want to see them dead mind you but I would deal with them as I have to and move on to the next call. We also would take backup along if we had to arrest a gang member as they typically carry weapons, have buddies nearby, abuse drugs and alcohol and aren't afraid to fight the police. Not the kind of situation where one officer can do it all alone.

[TX Kid]

Resisting arrest and being combative could turn into a death penalty offense.

[Lfpdlieu302]

as stated above it is going to be very hard for anyone to tell you what their opinion is without further information on the case. according to one witness however, the deputies continued to tell him to quit resisting. he must have been doing something. i was intrigued by the "too much testostorone" comment by the fellow biker. especially since they (bikers) normally travel in large groups. i'm sorry for the loss of your friend, but i would not be so quick to condemn the actions of the police. its a whole different story when you are the one who has to take somone in, and when you are the one who just sits back and watches.

[razdaz]

If you eat one or maybe two bad hamburgers, do you stop eat hamburgers altogether?

I am not saying this is an example of bad cops. It may be and it may not be, but do you throw the baby out with the bath water?

[911]

The civil lawsuit in this matter is yet to go to trial so don't be surprised if cops won't reply to your post. However, the county coroner's investigation determined that he died as a result of positional asphyxia -- a condition in which a body is placed in a position that interferes with breathing -- and that his death was an accident.

By the way, how, did you only find out "yesterday" about your friend's death which happened nine months ago?

[Wyatt Erp]

Just found this thread, so I thought it should be put out there: Vestal died of excited delerium. This was due to the borderline toxic levels of Meth and Cocaine in his system, as well as THC and amphetamines.

Since the last post, the DA's office has cleared all the deputies involved and all have been returned to work. It should also be noted that only 1 Deputy was found to have applied any pressure to Vestals lower back, and this was not involved in Vestals unfortunate death.

To the friend of Mr. Vestal: I know what its like to lose friends, and Im sorry for what happened. However, I have seen first hand the effects also on those involved on the law enforcement side. Those deputies that have been involved have been crucified by the press and by some of the public that associates with the Molochs, and when cleared by VICs tape (a video from the dash mounted camera) no one has really come forward to say they were wrong for the treatment and "guilty" verdict handed down to those deputies before the facts were released. Most of these men's lives have changed for the worse. Marriages have ended. Some are affraid to be working again for fear they will be subjected to the same treatment after doing thier job.

Trust me, everyone wishes this has never happened. Its been only a negative experience for everyone. Unfortunately Mr. Vestal decided to use Crank and Cocaine for about a week before this incident, and contact with the Deputies only went downhill. If for one moment you or anyone thinks these guys just walked away from this incident without a second thought though, you are wrong. They regret the fact they could not save him, and will carry this burden for the rest of thier careers and probably for thier lives.

In comment about the Yecny case, he was also on Meth, and had toxic levels when he was brought into the jail around 1:30 am. He went to the hospital around 9 am again I think, and was STILL toxic. There was a struggle to get him into restraints at the order of county mental health. He stopped breathing and CPR/AED were administered to bring him back. I dont think anything else has been released, but it sounds like me, it could be another case of excited delerium? Doctors cant explain exactly what causes it, but ask them about the survivability rate of it. I believe the statics are like 50% when cocaine is involved, and 1% when Meth is involved. Something to do with the chemicals involved, reaction with the body, and the stress put on the body when struggling with police (or any violent struggle). The problem is you only hear about excited delirium stories when police are involved.

Anyhow, Ill step off my soapbox now, this post got rather long.

[911]

He's gone all quiet...

[Wyatt Erp]

Its funny, as there is another thread in another webpage about this same subject. Once the truth was put out to the public, Vestals family fell silent there also. All the critics have pretty much fell silent. They sorta lost thier thunder when the audio/video came out to prove the "eyewitness" false. It should also be noted that one of the most vocal "witnesses" was a guy who wanted to get into the Molochs gang, but had been ignored by the Molochs until this. Motive perhaps?

Sure there will be a civil lawsuit. People have a very hard time accepting when thier loved ones are in the wrong. I just hope the truth being revealed will help restore some of the trust lost, by the community, when the lies and false statements were spun to the press.

[Stump]

I hate when the media starts stuff like that. It is always dramatized, and one-sided. Very rarely does it portray the whole story.