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  1. #1
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    Does NYPD still require the heavy trigger?

    Glock still has an NY1 and NY2 spring available apparently to more closely mimic the transition from revolver to semi-auto.

    Does NYPD a) still issue Glocks and b) require the heavier pull trigger springs and/or connectors? The last information I heard was that it was close to 12 lbs and I was wondering of that was still the same.
    Last edited by MikeG; 08-24-12 at 02:21 PM.
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  2. #2
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    The NYPD does still issue Glocks....and Sigs and S&W. You pick in the academy the one you want!

    The NYPD requires the heavier trigger pull on ALL semi-autos......duty and off-duty. In addition, all NYPD guns are double action only (DAO). All NYPD guns have a trigger pull of at least 12 pounds.


    The NY-1 is a 8 pound pull. Glock developed such at the request of the NY State Police. The NYPD jumped on board and required such for all on duty and off duty weapons.

    In 2007, the NYPD jumped ship and went to a 12 pound or greater pull. S&W, SIG and Glock all accomodated for on and off duty weapons, Beretta did for aoff duty, but Kahr could not get it to work at 12+, so Kahr was dropped from the NYPD in late 2011.
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  3. #3
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    I figure training and repetition is probably the most important but has anyone ever done accuracy study/comparison of a stress simulation between departments with similar weapons of a different trigger pull?

    Probably can't just take the same person and give them different pistols as that would require transition time and extra training which would negate the outcome of the study.

    I'm thinking a study of say a random 50 officers from NYSP who use an 8 lb Glock and 50 NYPD with a 12lb Glock and 50 from another similar agency with a 5.5lb Glock (all same caliber) and put them through encounter simulations to get their adrenalin levels up (or even more radical, give them a medication that amps them up a bit for the sim) and compare results? Not a competition with the best shooters, just a random sample of officers that pass their departments qualification.

    It seems intuitive (at least to me anyway) that the heavier the trigger pull, the larger the difference in stress vs. non-stress "feel" as well as an inherent increase in difficulty in being accurate with that much squeeze being necessary.

    Have you (or anyone else) moved from different trigger pulls and noticed a difference? Technique-wise I don't think it's supposed to make a difference but I can't imagine that heavy a trigger has a lot of "surprise" when it breaks. Or rather, you're not expecting the break before 10 lbs and everybody knows what that feels like on the range and then the adrenalin makes 10 lbs feel like 1 lbs and the "surprise" is felt as the pistol is drawn from the holster as it all feels like take-up slack.

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    No department will EVER "medicate" anyone for tests. Also, I don't know the reasoning but I imagine its to prevent any claims of "accidental" shootings etc. Study? I don't see that happening either, it all comes down to folks in a office deciding weapons for officers on the street.
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  5. #5
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    "Hey guys, we shouldn't allow our guys to put hair triggers on guns, it's a liability thing."

    -"Liability? So if we increase trigger pull we can decrease our risk?"

    "Well, yes, but it's sort of a decreasing gain..."

    -"Do you think we can create a 30lb trigger pull? I bet bad shootings would go way down!"

    (I wouldn't be surprised.)
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ET109 View Post
    "Hey guys, we shouldn't allow our guys to put hair triggers on guns, it's a liability thing."

    -"Liability? So if we increase trigger pull we can decrease our risk?"

    "Well, yes, but it's sort of a decreasing gain..."

    -"Do you think we can create a 30lb trigger pull? I bet bad shootings would go way down!"

    (I wouldn't be surprised.)
    Here's video of the shootout.

    | NBC New York

    This is what prompted the question. BG pointed gun at officers after killing co-worker. They shot and killed him as expected. 16 rounds fired by 2 officers. 7 hits, 3 exit wounds. 9 bystanders wounded downrange by police rounds. I don't think a 12lb trigger would inhibit the rate of fire with adrenalin jacked up but what about accuracy?

    I would want to know how many misses are due to 12lb trigger under stress. It can't be concluded from a single video like that and all the dynamics going on that but a test between depts could. What sucks is if it is a factor, those officers are responsible for each round and if the misses are related to the trigger pull what can they do? The city will test fire their pistols from a bench and they will be spot-on accurate breaking at 12lbs and then who is liable?

    As an officer, would that heavy of a trigger pull concern you or is it a non-issue?
    Last edited by MikeG; 08-25-12 at 03:36 PM. Reason: updated count from media accounts

  7. #7
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    Hers the thing. Many testers out ther claim the 12 pound decreases accuracy. Nobody has proven anything becuase folks who tarin are fine iwth it, yet a guy who barely shoots may have problems. It all boils down to training and muscle memory.

    In addition, I will give the NYPD....every trigger pull is the same. Every one. Not so with ANY cop carrying a DA/SA pistols. That alone would have to be evaluated in your theory. All SIG DA/SA start at 10-12 pounds and then drop almost of not more than half on the second.

    MANY agencies have a 10 pound and several have a 12 pound. LACSD has a 12/5 last I knew. I went from the Glock 37 to the NYPD trigger to the SIG DA/SA and now to a Glock again. All is fine in my shooting and trigger pull has not casued any problems.....training fixes everything.

    Trigger pull doesn't direct where a bullet goes, where you aim the barrel does!

    As far as the shooting goes, I won't comment on the open forum other than to say I have more knowledged about what happened than most. Those misses had nothing to do with trigger pull. Whose liable for the bad rounds? The City of NY. Nobody is hanging the cops for anything. They did what they thought best under the circumstances They City of NY will be paying the nine folks shot by the cops missed rounds. Thats it. Otherwise they will be back to work!
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeyd6 View Post
    As far as the shooting goes, I won't comment on the open forum other than to say I have more knowledged about what happened than most. Those misses had nothing to do with trigger pull. Whose liable for the bad rounds? The City of NY. Nobody is hanging the cops for anything. They did what they thought best under the circumstances They City of NY will be paying the nine folks shot by the cops missed rounds. Thats it. Otherwise they will be back to work!
    That's good to know. I know they had to shoot. The video hints at some stuff going on. I didn't want to see a physiological issue with equipment be turned on the officers and I have no feel for what a 12 lb trigger does or how sensitive it becomes to adrenalin and training. It would be interesting experiment even just to limit it to glocks.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeyd6 View Post
    Trigger pull doesn't direct where a bullet goes, where you aim the barrel does!
    I would tend to mostly agree with you on this one, Joey, but trigger pull CAN definitely affect where the round goes. Pretty sure you're a firearms instructor, no? Haven't you seen the guys who have too much finger on their trigger and pull the shot up and right (for right handed shooters)? Get them to pull the trigger straight back and they groups get more towards center mass.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinepilot View Post
    I would tend to mostly agree with you on this one, Joey, but trigger pull CAN definitely affect where the round goes. Pretty sure you're a firearms instructor, no? Haven't you seen the guys who have too much finger on their trigger and pull the shot up and right (for right handed shooters)? Get them to pull the trigger straight back and they groups get more towards center mass.
    I think grip tightening is another one. Low and left for righties when they torque it with their grip. Bullet still goes where it's pointed though . I believe adrenaline can change it so muscle memory and natural/expected point gets jacked. anticipating recoil can change it too (trigger slapping). I tend to trigger slap .40 caliber and I've never experienced an adrenaline inducing scenario but I understand it to be the same type of mechanics problem of the wrist slightly torqueing the gun as the pucker factor goes up.

  11. #11
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    update to rounds fired from Reuters

    Two dead, 9 wounded in gunfire near NY's Empire State Building - Yahoo! News

    16 rounds fired by 2 officers. 7 hits, 3 exit wounds (10 holes in BG). 9 bystanders wounded by police rounds. Ricochets were also prevalent due to anti-terrorism flower pots in the area.
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  12. #12
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    In a real shootout, everything is pretty much instinctive and trigger pull doesn't mean squat. It's only really important in competition shooting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat_Doc View Post
    You just gotta realize he is hard of hearing and cranky, and try to speak up more clearly next time and make it perfectly clear what you were saying so there is no misinterpretation. You gotta try not to get mad at the old guy, recognizing the issue at hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retdetsgt View Post
    In a real shootout, everything is pretty much instinctive and trigger pull doesn't mean squat. It's only really important in competition shooting.
    I didn't even remember pulling the trigger in my shooting. It was a S&W model 15 and engaged double action. (We never trained with single action and the shot was instinctive any way.) I wasn't aware of recoil, either.

    To this day, however, I can distinctly remember seeing the muzzle flash and recognizing that I was going through auditory exclusion. The round going off sounded like a little pop, even less than those bubble packing wraps the kids will stomp on. It was kind of surreal.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat_Doc View Post
    I didn't even remember pulling the trigger in my shooting. It was a S&W model 15 and engaged double action. (We never trained with single action and the shot was instinctive any way.) I wasn't aware of recoil, either.

    To this day, however, I can distinctly remember seeing the muzzle flash and recognizing that I was going through auditory exclusion. The round going off sounded like a little pop, even less than those bubble packing wraps the kids will stomp on. It was kind of surreal.
    Both mine were with a S&W Model 19 and I just remember looking down the sights at the people and pulling the trigger. They were double action, we were taught not to use single. I don't remember the sound or anything like at at all, just watching them fall to the ground. It was surreal, kind of in slow motion. As I said, it was instinctive, I never noticed the trigger pull like I always did at the range.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat_Doc View Post
    You just gotta realize he is hard of hearing and cranky, and try to speak up more clearly next time and make it perfectly clear what you were saying so there is no misinterpretation. You gotta try not to get mad at the old guy, recognizing the issue at hand.

  15. #15
    Joeyd6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinepilot View Post
    I would tend to mostly agree with you on this one, Joey, but trigger pull CAN definitely affect where the round goes. Pretty sure you're a firearms instructor, no? Haven't you seen the guys who have too much finger on their trigger and pull the shot up and right (for right handed shooters)? Get them to pull the trigger straight back and they groups get more towards center mass.
    I do agree slightly and you make a good point.....but the trigger pull doesn't direct the bullet...its casues where the barrel goes. Slapping, light trigger, heavy finger, etc....all, cause a move in the barrel.

    In the conversation, when I said trigger pull, I am only refernecing the amount of pull in pounds, not technique. In that context, a -4-6-8-12 pound in a real shooting won't matter or be noticed at all. Its a pistol.
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