How to safely disagree with an officer?

[Bureaucromancer]

Right off the bat I want to ask that you try not to take this the wrong way... I'm really not looking for an argument but I and a few people I know have had some pretty unfortunate interactions with law enforcement over the years and I have a pretty simple question...

What would you say is the best way to disagree with an officer in a way that doesn't antagonize? To give a pretty typical example there was a change in our traffic laws a few years back to allow things called E-Bikes to operate unlicensed and uninsured (the really short version is that certain light battery assisted bicycles can operate under the same laws as completely unmotorised vehicles, but the legal issue isn't really my point). Not really surprisingly it took the news some time to filter down to every officer on the street, and there was some confusion about what was and wasn't legal (in fairness even if the officers should have (and mostly did) known about the change in law pretty quickly there were some nuances creating room for confusion, like vehicles that look more like motorcycles than bicycles but do meet the legal definition and how this applies to places like shared cycling and pedestrian trails) .

The thing is though that a number of people (myself included) were stopped while riding these vehicles and ticketed or warned for operating motorized vehicles without proper licenses and or insurance... For the most part these weren't big incidents, but some officers got very aggressive if anyone tried to explain the law, in my case threatening to arrest me if I didn't sign the ticket, stop riding the vehicle and essentially stop arguing with him (I may have gotten loud, but made no aggressive movement toward him). No one I know was able to actually talk an officer out of writing a ticket (again, in all fairness I only know of four people this happened to, though a couple of them had it happen more than once)...

This, among other things has left me with the impression that a lot of officers are pretty quick to get upset if people are less than completely cooperative, and I really would like to know how LEO's would suggest dealing with situations that officers are in the wrong? I mean, at the end of the day, I have better things to do than spending a day in court dealing with a ticket that shouldn't have been issued in the first place, but I really don't want to end up fighting some kind of criminal charge and dealing with an arrest (or, really, even an angry cop at all).

IS there a realistic way to ask an officer to check whether he's right about a point of law, or reconsider his actions that isn't more likely to escalate a situation (yes, bearing in mind attitude matter, cops are people and have bad days, etc etc)? Please do bear in mind as well that while I talk a lot about one incident and problem, I'm asking more about my experience having, generally, been that a lot of officers (NOT all by any stretch of the imagination I) really don't want to have conversations about how they are handling a situation and get upset pretty quickly if questioned.

I really don't mean this as an attack, and hope it didn't come off as too antagonistic...

PS: Made some quick edits to try and be clearer

[Samuel]

Ok, ASSuming you are 100% in the right, IF this happened to me, I definitely would not get "loud". What I might have done immediately after the first incident would be to take the ticket down to the station along with my e-bike and my "proof" and ask to speak with the traffic office supervisor or the supervisor in charge. I would present my argument, show them my proof, ask that the citation be voided, and request that all the officers be briefed on the new law(s).

After that, I would keep a copy of the new law(s) with me or secured with my e-bike and, if I were pulled over again, I would respectfully ask the officer if I could show him/her a copy of the new law(s). If he/she refused to read my paperwork, I would respectfully ask him/her to contact the supervisor I had spoken to my last trip to the station and confirm my information. Maybe ask to show him/her a copy of the voided citation.

If that failed and I still got a ticket, I might have the traffic judge or clerk contact the police department by phone or via a court liaison officer to immediately advise/inform all personnel. Perhaps file a complaint with the agency and/or with city hall or the county.

If an officer is not willing to listen to a respectful you, raising your voice or otherwise escalating things is most likely not gonna work either...

YMMV with everything above...

[Citicop]

There's nothing wrong with telling the officer in response, "I'm sorry, Officer. I honestly thought that [insert point of law here]." Maybe have a copy with you. "Here's a copy of the law, officer. Did I misunderstand it?"

Arguing roadside is pointless and rarely successful. The appropriate venue for raising the points you want to raise IS in court.

-Citicop.

[Bureaucromancer]

Just thought I'd quickly mention that since my incident I have carried a copy of the appropriate bit of legislation (and I think some other people have been as well). I haven't heard of there being a problem with anybody carrying that (and its been a few years since this was an issue, it was legitimately a question of officers not having heard about a change yet).

That said, I admit that part of what annoyed me was that speaking to officers at the station resulted in them basically saying that they'd pass the word about the law along, but that (depending on who you asked) they couldn't or wouldn't actually cancel the citation.

Anyway, thanks for the input, and if anybody else feels like adding anything I will be watching, though I may not respond immediately.

[ET109]

At one point I lived in a state where some vehicle laws pertaining to me changed- I printed out the relevant changes and kept them with my vehicle. It's not hard and is a good way to do it. Now, if you receive a ticket anyway (or because you didn't have them), sign it and go about your day. You may be arrested if you don't... I know the tickets I write say as much right next to the line. Just sign it and bring it to the station and, if necessary, court. I'm not sure how your state handles citations (we have to write an official memorandum to void them... it's not as simple as throwing them in the trash), but worse comes to worse try calling court or sending them an explanation by mail.

I can think of two times I've stopped someone wrongly. Once I only realized it after issuing a warning (no real harm done) and the second time the person calmly explained why she thought she was right and that the other motorist had been the one wrong. She was correct, and it took me about two minutes to figure it out and send her on her way with an apology. She didn't get loud or act uncooperative at all.

[ChesCopPodz]

At my department, and many others, the ticket CANNOT be cancelled by officers once it's sent to the court. It becomes the property of the court, and only the DA or a judge can dismiss it from there. Even if I went back, looked up the law, and saw that I was wrong, the most I can do is call the DA's office and let them know.

[mcsap]

If you can't win an argument in a normal tone , you will only make it worse by getting louder.

[APDSarge]

We are in the same boat here, no one can "void" another officers ticket - not even the Chief. So going to the department to argue about a point of law is pretty pointless. The proper venue to make your arguements is in court. Getting loud with an officer on the side of the road will not get you anywhere, and could cause you much worse problems than getting a ticket.

Sign the ticket and be on your way, set your ticket for court and present your arguements there.

[DeltaV]

As has previously been said, the place to argue points of law is in court. There's nothing wrong with pointing out your observations or even carrying a copy of the law (as you say you do now). I remember when these things first started popping up around here and there were similar problems. Our legal adviser even put out a departmental bulletin about what is required to be licensed and what is not. If you still have issues then talking to the department's legal adviser might be in order.

[txinvestigator1]

To be fair, there is nothing wrong with going to the department when cited or having enforcement action taken against you for something that is not a violation. They may not be able to void a ticket, but there is an opportunity to get to someone in a position to educate the uninformed and misinformed.

[Joeyd6]

If a cop stops you becuase they think you did something wrong.....it is likely you will not change their mind.
If you are polite and don't argue, answer questions appropiately and cooperate.....they may use discretion.

I explained to folks all the time......you can speak to me, but unless I ask, don't plead your case. The street where I stopped you is not a place where you need to convince I didn't see what I know I did or what I think is wrong. The time for that is in a courtroom. You can explain and plead away to the judge.

Do your homework and spend the hour or two in court to prove your point. But arguing or not cooperating (refusing to sign...getting loud) is only going to casue more problems in the street.

[scott715us]

I agree with the others. It will depend on the officer as to whether he is willing to listen to your argument. Understand that 99% of the time we are right in the majority of laws we enforce. A bulk of the people that think they know what they're talking about actually don't because they took the law they read out of context or heard it from someone else and made an assumption. If you carry a copy of it with you and the conversation is polite/cordial, then offer to show it. Otherwise explain the situation in court. If you were right all along and the charge is dismissed, try to speak with the local District Attorney about the issue. They may have a better chance at passing the info along to the involved LE agencies in your area.

I'm not implying that all LEOs will know all laws correctly 99% of the time, but considering our job is to enforce laws, we're going to know more than anyone else about the matter (with the exception of ADAs and judges). It's like telling a plumber at your house he doesn't know what he's doing under your sink.

[mcsap]

In another thread on this site , someone used the Wikipedia definition in describing a legal term. I can assure you that a legal definition can greatly vary from the one found in a dictionary.

under PA State Law , if stopped for a traffic offense , you are required to " display " your license , registration and proof of insurance to the officer. Does this mean that you can just hold them up to the window and " display " them ? No.

The legal definition of display in PA is to temporarily surrender the documents to the officer.

So never assume that you are 100% right unless you KNOW the laws and definitions UP FRONT. If you determine later that you are right , you can certainly approach the PD with a copy and ask to speak to a supervisor.

As a supervisor , I had the authority to withdraw a cite and if I found out that I made a mistake , I would gladly have done exactly that.

[kendral77]

1 word. COURT!

[CPL1897]

Can I just point out the Title of the post is How to "Safely" Disagree with an Officer..Honestly its not
lkie its "Dangerous" to disagree with LE, theres no "crime in Disagreeing with an Officer...Last time I checked the days of "Rodney King" type behaving is long gone or AT LEAST IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS!