Police Officer Preparation & Law Enforcement Resource - Archive

Hey guys, I read a post a while ago regarding the advantages and disadvantages of the shotgun vs. rifle relative to your line of work. I was wondering if any of you saw the episode of "Futureweapons" (Discovery Channel ?) detailing the automatic shotgun developed by Blackwater and what your thoughts on it were?

I know very little about firearms besides which end is the dangerous one, so I find your discussions very enlightening! Thanks.

That weapon your talking about would probably not be allowed for other than specialized units to carry. It is just too much devastating fire power for the normal use scenario. 20 rounds of 12 guage in less than 5 seconds= not much left for evidence:rolleyes:. With grenade rounds, who needs to wait for SWAT:p.

A patrol rifle and shotgun, IMHO, is adequate for the job of a patrol unit. I prefer a shotgun with slugs in the sleeve over a rifle.;)

For those times I have been called out to an area with lots of space in between their long rifle and my personal weapon, I prefer a patrol rifle.:D

Hey guys, I read a post a while ago regarding the advantages and disadvantages of the shotgun vs. rifle relative to your line of work. I was wondering if any of you saw the episode of "Futureweapons" (Discovery Channel ?) detailing the automatic shotgun developed by Blackwater and what your thoughts on it were?

I know very little about firearms besides which end is the dangerous one, so I find your discussions very enlightening! Thanks.

Its NEAT, but it will have little or no applications in civilian police work.

Its NEAT, but it will have little or no applications in civilian police work.

Thats not exactly true, dove season is coming in Sept.
I wonder if the Sheriff would spring for a couple boxes of 7 1/2s?
Although, I am sure that fish and game would be a little
upset about shooting out the window of the patrol vehicle. LOL


Not real practical for everyday patrol use.

Moved from Ask A Cop to the firearms section.

That weapon your talking about would probably not be allowed for other than specialized units to carry. It is just too much devastating fire power for the normal use scenario. 20 rounds of 12 guage in less than 5 seconds= not much left for evidence:rolleyes:. With grenade rounds, who needs to wait for SWAT:p.

A patrol rifle and shotgun, IMHO, is adequate for the job of a patrol unit. I prefer a shotgun with slugs in the sleeve over a rifle due to over penetration concerns.;)

For those times I have been called out to an area with lots of space in between their long rifle and my personal weapon, I prefer a patrol rifle.:D

No offense, but over penetration is a common misconception. Do some reading up on the subject you might be surprised.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=26

While it's an awesome gun, it won't be legal t own on the non-military side of things any time im the near future.

A rifled slug will present far more overpenetration problems than a .223 rifle round.

A rifled slug will present far more overpenetration problems than a .223 rifle round.

Absolutely.

A rifled slug will present far more overpenetration problems than a .223 rifle round.

In fact, I carry slugs for my shotgun, just for situations where I think I might need extra penetration (Mine is also very accurate up to fifty yards or so with slugs, (ten inch groups off hand)).

I have a shotgun and a .223 rifle. They both have their uses and I wouldn't feel like I was in bad shape if I only had either one as a long arm.

Cobra, what is the difference between a long rifle and a patrol rifle?

Cobra, what is the difference between a long rifle and a patrol rifle?

Long Rifle = Sniper Type weapon for long distance engagement.

Patrol Rifle = Usually an AR-15/M-16 type weapon used to engage distances greater than a hand gun for accuracy.

Sir's, regarding the "Over Penetration" statement, I should have made it clear. I prefer the shotgun 12 guage buck rounds when clearing a location to a rifle. The slugs in my shotgun sleeve are used if I need the rifle penetration capability that my handgun (45 cal) does not have.:o

Long Rifle = Sniper Type weapon for long distance engagement.

Patrol Rifle = Usually an AR-15/M-16 type weapon used to engage distances greater than a hand gun for accuracy.

Sir's, regarding the "Over Penetration" statement, I should have made it clear. I prefer the shotgun 12 guage buck rounds when clearing a location to a rifle due to "Over Penetration" concerns. The slugs in my shotgun sleeve are used if I need the rifle penetration capability that my handgun does not have.:o

First of all, I believe a bol-gun/sniper type of weapon is well outside this discussion. These types of deployments are reserved for special teams (SRT/,SWAT,SOG,etc.).

Again, you may want to do more reading on ballistics. A link was already provided and I know there are several thads to which I have posted. The bottom linr is A STANDARD SOFT-TIP or HOLLOW POINT 5.56/.233 will penetrate less than a 9mm handgun round. They do very well with initial barrier penetration, but tumble, fragment, and lose velocity very rapidly. I am referring to standard issue, non-specialty rounds (such as TAP, et.).

Perhaps you're basing your discussion on military or bonded rounds. These are NOT standard LE issued rounds. I have/carry bonded rounds for situations where I need extra penetration

Anywho, do a little research. :)

First of all, I believe a bol-gun/sniper type of weapon is well outside this discussion. These types of deployments are reserved for special teams (SRT/,SWAT,SOG,etc.).

Again, you may want to do more reading on ballistics. A link was already provided and I know there are several thads to which I have posted. The bottom linr is A STANDARD SOFT-TIP or HOLLOW POINT 5.56/.233 will penetrate less than a 9mm handgun round. They do very well with initial barrier penetration, but tumble, fragment, and lose velocity very rapidly. I am referring to standard issue, non-specialty rounds (such as TAP, et.).

Perhaps you're basing your discussion on military or bonded rounds. These are NOT standard LE issued rounds. I have/carry bonded rounds for situations where I need extra penetration

Anywho, do a little research. :)

Believe me, I am not a weapons expert. I believe your expertise is far greater than mine in daily deployments of such weapons and ammunition.

In my department however, a Long Rifle and Patrol Rifle differ and the ammunition used in both differ. My patrol rifle rounds are no match for our sniper rounds or the military NATO 5.56 rounds I've used. I did not mean to "mis-inform" at all.

After reading the link, I realized my mistake concerning the ballistic information. That's why I adjusted my answer (mistakenly again).

I think after re-reading the original post and re-adjusting my 1st response, I responded in-correctly (i.e. Shotgun vs Rifle). I'm thinking along the same lines of ammunition also. Shotguns under normal field use are 12 guage buck and not slug. Reason I would prefer the buckshot is because I don't have to worry about direct placement rather than general direction of spread. With a Patrol Rifle I'm concerned more about shot placement (our Patrol AR-15's don't have the 3rd selection;)).

Again, I apologize for making those mistakes. Over penetration should never have been used.

Hey, you try and think clearly on this type of response and subject after putting in a 15hr shift driving in the rain:p:D.

So, your department allows non-sniper trained officers to deploy with sniper platforms? Or, assuming the are all trained in them, do they follow the NTOA standards of monthly quals. Or are these just larger caliber, hunting style rifles being deployed much as an officer would deploy an AR/M16 platform?

Do a search for my post in one of the other rifle v. shotgun threads. It has a very detailed discussion of the ballistics of the 5.56, slug and 00 buck. I would be careful, however, talking about firing ANY weapon and saying that you need only worry about the general direction. :)

For you shotgun fans, look into the Federal and Remington reduced recoil rounds. They are awesome. Think "nearly all the pellets in a head target at 25 yards" type of awesome. :)

Switch, you are truly speaking as an Expert here. From my experience and training, I'm speaking (writing) in general terms in regards to shotgun deployment from a Patrol level, shotguns (12 guage buck) are used when background is of concern but accurate placement is not readily possible (i.e. target has cover/concealment, hence general direction). We (i.e. Patrol) don't train for head shots with a shotgun over here. Slugs are used when penetration is needed and a Patrol rifle is not available per our training. There are units out there that have both (Patrol Rifle and Shotgun) but there just is not enough to go around. All units are required to have a shotgun and slugs are not required to be carried (I definitely have slugs on my sleeve and in my bail-out bag).

My department does not allow the deployment of sniper level rounds by anyone other than the authorized special units. I again did not relay that clearly. Their qual standards are a mystery to me and will be for quite some time. Patrol rifles use something that probably has less penetration than a 12 guage slug.

Though I've had the pleasure of firing Military sniper weapons and the few sniper platforms my department allows at the range, I for sure am not qualified to call myself a sniper. I was happy just to hit the target (though I have qualified Navy and Marine Expert on the M-16 and M-4:rolleyes::D).

Oh, don't worry. I knew what you were saying about round placement. It was just a subtle reminder about how it's said... which is very important after a shooting.

FWIW, when I spoke about the shotgroup of the reduced recoil rounds, it was more just for an easy descritption. I don't trust them that much, as we still had a routine flyer or 2 at that distance. The buffer they use in those rounds is phenomenal.