Police Officer Preparation & Law Enforcement Resource - Archive

I'm really not even sure what to say about this. I know I wasn't there and don't know the full story but it's hard to try and think what could have happened to cause the crew to bring him back inside and leave.

http://www.cbs3springfield.com/news/local/17986579.html

"They took him into the ambulance and they told us he passed away," said Colon.

That is when the family said the EMTs, who were still parked in the street, brought Suliveres' dead body back up the sidewalk, up the porch stairs, and back to the front door.

"They just told us they're going to bring him back in and we have to take care of calling the funeral home," said Colon

wth?

Hmm being someone who works both for a private company full time and a municipality part time I really don't see what the EMT's did wrong except for the fact that they didn't have any empathy for the family. As long as they contacted Medical Control told them of the situation, the Doctor orders them to release the body back to the family because he has a valid DNR and has called the person, I really see nothing else wrong. Similar situations have happened to me. Yes we have transported the patient back to the hospital so they could be released to the funeral home from the hospital

Hmm being someone who works both for a private company full time and a municipality part time I really don't see what the EMT's did wrong except for the fact that they didn't have any empathy for the family. As long as they contacted Medical Control told them of the situation, the Doctor orders them to release the body back to the family because he has a valid DNR and has called the person, I really see nothing else wrong. Similar situations have happened to me. Yes we have transported the patient back to the hospital so they could be released to the funeral home from the hospital

Yup... I call the bolded text above a significant departure from just leaving the body. IMO, when you take custody of that body, you should RETAIN custody... not for legality, policy or cost-effectiveness... but for the family.

Hmm being someone who works both for a private company full time and a municipality part time I really don't see what the EMT's did wrong except for the fact that they didn't have any empathy for the family. As long as they contacted Medical Control told them of the situation, the Doctor orders them to release the body back to the family because he has a valid DNR and has called the person, I really see nothing else wrong. Similar situations have happened to me. Yes we have transported the patient back to the hospital so they could be released to the funeral home from the hospital

Seriously?? If I was ever forced into a situation like that (and I do mean forced, because I would never do something like this), it would be the last call I would ever answer for that service. If in fact this is the whole story, bringing the guy back into the house and just taking off is a pretty rotten thing to do to the family.

I agree its rotten, but what do happens when you disobey a direct order? What if you only have one service in town and can only work for that service your kinda screwed. I also think if its a true 911 call ALS should be sent.

I wasn't there, and I try to never monday morning quarterback EMS providers on the basis of a media report, but it seems like this situation could have been handled much differently.

One area that is sorely lacking from most EMS curriculums that I've looked at is how to deal with a death. We train so hard to save a life, but what to do when we don't succeed is typically a half page in a textbook.

If the medical control doctor told me to bring the guy back in the house and leave, I would give the cell phone to a family member and let him tell them that news himself. His answer might be a little different :D I work on a volunteer service, so it is a little different, but honestly, we tie up the ambulance taking people to the hospital for the dumbest stuff all the time...people who could probably drive themselves, people who didn't think to just call their regular doctor and make an appointment, people who probably really aren't even sick but worry a lot...not to take THEM can be called patient abandonment...it makes no sense. Something must be missing from the story...I hope. BTW, I don't mind those calls, I enjoy answering them all :D any opportunity to take the truck out and use all that fun stuff is a good one!

I think its messed up, regardless of what policy is. Sure, leave a decomposing body at the family's so they can stare at it and add to the emotional distress and trauma just because some doctor thinks thats the way it should be.

Disgrace.

I think its messed up, regardless of what policy is. Sure, leave a decomposing body at the family's so they can stare at it and add to the emotional distress and trauma just because some doctor thinks thats the way it should be.

Disgrace.

well said!

Yeah, Med Control most likely made that call :eek: But for City Services???



Stupid stupid stupid. Here MC is whatever RN that is speaking in front of a Dr in the ER.



I'd have to say the family has a pretty good case here...that was wrong no matter what.

I agree like I said the EMT's need to think about what they are doing. They didn't have empathy. I always put myself in someone else's shoes

Don't know what to think about that. Then again, I'm not an EMT either. :confused:

Found an update to the story that it looks like it may have been a state law not to take the man's body by ambulance.
http://www.cbs3springfield.com/news/local/18022649.html

The Office of Emergency Medical Services writes the policies for EMTs in Massachusetts. An online version of the policy states that if a patient is in cardiac arrest, EMTs are to "initiate transport as soon as possible." However, if a patient with a "Do Not Resuscitate" order is in cardiac arrest for more than one minute the patient may be pronounced dead, and doctors tell CBS 3 that it is state law that a dead body cannot be transported by ambulance.

Still not knowing the full story of both sides I can think of other ways to handle it. Personally if a Dr. really told the EMTs to do that (and the family sues AMR) then the Dr. better be in court too.

So when my patient arrests, and is clinically dead, I can't transport them in my ambulance?

Found an update to the story that it looks like it may have been a state law not to take the man's body by ambulance.


Still not knowing the full story of both sides I can think of other ways to handle it. Personally if a Dr. really told the EMTs to do that (and the family sues AMR) then the Dr. better be in court too.



That is a screwed up law... Do they not transport bodies to the morgue like we do on the private I work for??

I agree it's a messed up law. I think that must be about not transport already dead people (like from the hospital to the morgue) (I hope).
What I want to know is what happens if the guy dies on a 100+ mile interfaculty transport, then what?

I could see that hurting their public relations a little bit bringing the body back.

Around here when we have a body, EMS stays on scene to contact the doctor to see if they will sign the death certificate. If the doctor agrees then ems leaves and the body stays at that location for the family to call a funeral home.

I think people are trying to justify what happened through technicalities. If you have a cardiac arrest, you work him up until you arrive at the hospital or call him on-scene where you found him (not where you put him after death).

If resuscitation is stopped during transport, you either continue to the ER or you can be all technical about it and pull over where you are and wait for the coroner.

But you do not move the dead body back to the family's home. That's where common sense comes in (unless there was some kind of very unique circumstance that wasn't mentioned).

I'm sure the law on no-transport of dead bodies, applied to legal death, as when you give a time of death...not clinically dead as when you start CPR.

If the base doc ordered this then its legal, but it's bad form if the family is not ok with it. My question is this: Where did he die? If he was a ressuss that crumped enrout then we carry on to the ER. I never put a body inside the bus unless its a public scene or a gsw with a unruly crowd etc. I would attempt to judge the family's mental state to determine if I can guide them through the process of calling the funeral home and have them get an ETA for the ME. Its these types of sensitive scenes were you can bring a touch of class that elevates this profession to an art. If the family is freaking out then call the base back and say " Hey doc, I know the policy on transporting bodies but I need your help here, I can't leave the body here because..." Pull strings for a family in thier darkest hour and you'll feel a little less crappy about your job for a few hours. Plus your just going to get another call anyway! I think Priests should hold a class for medics so we can use some of thier best material on scenes like this.

Maybe the base md told them to shut up and leave the body, while multiple cpr's in progress "medic to follow" were going out on the air. Maybe one family member said to bring the body into the home and then another family member arrived later and heard that the medics dragged dad back into the house and went crazy and called the media. maybe they were idiot rookies who tubed the stomach and didn't want to bring the screwup into the er? God only knows.