Police Officer Preparation & Law Enforcement Resource - Archive

My dept. (call/Volunteer) is having problems staffing calls at night. We have a regional paramedic that is on call from 7pm to 7AM. During the day 7A-7P we have our own per diems that cover this shift. But we can't get any basics to come out on calls. Oh, they will show up if it's a cardiac arrest, MVA, or something "exciting" but for the 99% of our calls which are transport grandma Marge to the hospital from the local nursing home because she fell, or assist Mable back into bed because she fell no one will show up and we end up having to use out of town coverage. Obviously these calls we don't call the regional paramedics because they aren't paramedic calls and we don't want to tie them up on a basic call when they might get a true paramedic call in the next town over.

We have tried having people sign up on a monthly schedule, we have sent out e-mails to everyone on the staff. So with a staff of over 50 active EMTs, why can't we get at least 2 people to show up at night to help the residents of the town. Sure, I like the big exciting stuff, but I also really like the quick, easy calls where all I do is assist an elderly lady or man back into bed and I get back home and lose almost no sleep and still get paid for my hour.

Does anyone else have this problem or does anyone know how to solve this problem?

We have assigned call nights. If you want to be on the squad and keep your license, you need to take 1 night a week, one weekend every 6 weeks, and help Mable back into bed a 2:30 in the morning. With 50 volunteers I can't imagine it not working, unless this is a pretty big town with lots of calls. Getting your volunteers to agree to that I think might be tricky, you may lose a lot of help.
PS Our squad is one of the last truly volunteer ones in the state, I don't get paid at all.... We do have paid staff during the day though, since people need to work.

Have to hire a couple people full time. Towns up north near Traverse City (out in podunk USA) have done the exact same thing (Early in the AM calls or late night)


Thats pretty much the only solution

Yeah, that's a problem that basically every volunteer department in the US is facing. And unfortunately, EMS runs, even the "fun" calls like SOB, CP, CVA, etc. don't get people like fires do.

If you can't get people to step up to the plate by reminding them of the obligations they incurred by taking the oath, putting on the uniform, etc., then hiring a paid crew may be the only answer.

If I might ask, what's your call volume look like, yearly, and day/night shift splits?

Not sure about the call volume as far as day/night but we run around 1000 calls a year on the EMS side and about 600 fire calls. Telling people they have to take one weekend a month wouldn't work because people like myself work every weekend at my full time job couldn't do it. But on my days off there is no reason I couldn't take one night a week. My problem is they haven't given me a pager that activates for EMS calls which I have been fighting with the D/C about for months. But that's just my excuse, as far as I know I am the only one that has that excuse.

But anyway, most calls do happen during the days. It's not a huge call volume at night and maybe now that they are allowing people to sleep at our new fire station this will improve but it's like pulling teeth to get people to sign up on the schedule. They are reluctant to "force" people to sign up because they don't want to lose any people but if people aren't going to show up on the calls then what good are they anyway?

I know there are people who work nights, I know a lot of people probably have good reason for not showing up at night but you can't tell me everyone works at night and no one could show up on calls.

I will be honest and say up until this past fall moral has been very low. We had a chief that got fired because he was an idiot. But now we have a great chief that is young and isn't afraid to get his hands dirty with the rest of us. He is the type of person that will show up at calls at 2AM and has no problem driving the bus to the hospital or put on an airpack and go in if he has to and that's what has been lacking. Our previous chief wanted to run command from the front seat of his blazer and didn't want to go out in the cold. Unless it was a major structure fire you wouldn't see him unless it was between 8am-4PM too except on training nights.

But I think eventually our new chief will make the changes that needs to be made. I think the biggest reason he is coming out on calls in the middle of the night is he wants to get an idea of who is showing up and who isn't.

It's also happening on the fire side too. It used to be you would get more people than you knew what to do with when you had a major structure fire but lately I have been to some structure fires when it was just about 5 of us on scene for quite a while. Of course this is mostly day time calls so there is talk of hiring more full time staff for the daytime when people are working. It isn't like 20 years ago when employers were more than happy to let volunteer firefighters respond to calls from work.

I was threatened with termination when I took a day off for a storm where the governor declared a state of emergecy and requested all non essential businesses close. I worked at a car dealership cleaning cars after the customer purchased them. I am sure they didn't sell any cars that day since most people's homes were under water or had trees and power lines down. My boss said that they didn't close because they felt if it was good enough weather for you volunteer fire service people to be out then the businesses could open. Talk about a moron for a supervisor. But I had already given my 2 week notice so I didn't care anyway. But I did have a copy of the Maine law stating that an employer cannot terminate the employment of a volunteer firefighter who was at an emergency unless it was an essential job function (police, fire, security, doctor, nurse, etc.) When I showed my boss the law he said "Well, we weren't going to fire you anyway but we wanted to give you a warning." Yeah right.

I was going to ask about the morale, but I figued you'd already certainly know if it was a factor and didn't want to be rude :D.

If it's good enough to drive a 15,000 pound truck in an emergency it's a good day to sell a car??? Whatever...you must be happy to have another job :D

You are going to have to hire full time people for sure.


1000 calls per year. This department (offered a F/T job making 30k a year) only gets 500 calls (EMS mainly) a year and had to for the 4p-12a M-F shift

http://www.peninsulatownship.com/firedepartment.php

Trust me...it will be worth it. If your department refuses to, I'm sure if "word gets out" to the public...people won't be too happy ;)

Yep, it's a changing culture. Volunteers aren't appreciated as much anymore. In many places with combination departments, or a mix of paid and volunteer companies, the citizens don't even realize that the crew that shows up is doing it for free. But, I digress.

Morale is a major issue. If people hate being at the fire station, they will, obviously, not be at the fire station. Congrats on getting a good chief, although FWIW, the front seat of a chief's car isn't always a bad place for a chief to be. If he's actually running command, there's a lot to be said for NOT being in the thick of things.

Having sleeping quarters is nice, as you can at least eliminate the inconvenience of having to respond to the station at night.

I would encourage you to look at your peak call times, and your day/night splits. If you have high call volumes at night, you may be burning people out. People don't like to respond four times a night, only to have to go to work for a solid work day the next morning, or worse yet, be stuck on a call when it's time to be at work.

Conversely, if your call volume is very LOW at night, people may be bored and complacent. Why sleep at the station, away from your bed, your spouse, etc., when you're probably not going to turn a wheel? And for those responding from home, there's always the "somebody else will get it" mentality or the "it's only one call a week we're missing" mentality.

It might be worth considering a live-in program, if your demographics support it. A number of departments in the DC metro area have them. Basically, in exchange for free housing at the station, firefighters/EMTs (usually students at the local colleges) provide overnight duty coverage.

You are going to have to hire full time people for sure.


1000 calls per year. This department (offered a F/T job making 30k a year) only gets 500 calls (EMS mainly) a year and had to for the 4p-12a M-F shift

http://www.peninsulatownship.com/firedepartment.php

Trust me...it will be worth it. If your department refuses to, I'm sure if "word gets out" to the public...people won't be too happy ;)

Sadly people in this town don't have clue. They don't care until they need to make the call themselves. We have had people pounding on the door to the fire station wondering, "Why don't these lazy firemen come and answer the door! What are they doing sleeping?!?!" This is what we get when we go to the stores in our town all the time. Our next question is usually "Were their any cars in the parking lot?" They usually say "No." Then we answer them by saying "That's because the lazy firemen are at their jobs and home with their families. If you need us then you need to pick up a phone and call 911." They haven't got a clue that we are a volunteer service. That's not a problem now that at least during the day time the station is staffed with full time personnel.

It would be worth it even to use the call people as per diems at night. Tell them they will get their hourly rate for spending the night at the station. It would improve response times and the calls would get covered.

I was going to ask about the morale, but I figued you'd already certainly know if it was a factor and didn't want to be rude :D.

If it's good enough to drive a 15,000 pound truck in an emergency it's a good day to sell a car??? Whatever...you must be happy to have another job :D

You ain't kidding, the boss was an idiot. Not to mention that even though I am not nearly making as much money as I need to make to live comfortably I am still making $2 an hour more than I was making there and I have less crap I have to deal with. Sometimes money isn't the most important thing. Sometimes having a job you enjoy coming to is worth more than money.

We only have about 20 active volunteers (plus daytime per-diems) for our all-EMS service, and our numbering system for run reports only goes up to 999...haha...I think it'd be Y2K if we had to go over 1000 calls, that's a lot.

People do seem to appreciate us around here, and are aware that most of the time, in most towns, the people who show up are volunteers. I wouldn't have thought Maine would be different, since it's so close geographically and culturally; but I've never really spent any time there, so what do I know ;)?

The problem is where I live in Maine. I live in the most populated area just outside Portland. So people in my town have the Portland mentality. You have Portland, Westbrook, South Portland, and Scarborough that all have mostly full time people. A few places like South Portland and Westbrook and Scarborough have a mix of full time and call companies but the smaller towns like Cumberland and Falmouth have mostly volunteers but they think because the taxes are so high they have full time departments. But what they don't realize is education eats up 80% of the budget so we have very little left to use.

Ahhh, the Ma$$achusetts end, I understand very well.;) Curbside trash pickup and preference for 55+ housing there too? Stuff is nice but it costs money :rolleyes:.

Before I moved to TN, I ran with a volly rescue squad in Northern VA. We were one of 3 squads left in the county that was still 100% volunteer.
We had similar problems getting people to respond. If they weren't choosing calls, they just couldn't get the time off from work and family to run. A large part of the problem was all the new residents moving into the area who didn't want to volunteer. They bought 500,000 dollar houses and sure didn't want to leave in the middle of the night to go carry aunt bee to the hospital because she decided that the breathing problem she had for the past week just couldn't wait until the morning. :p

We had scheduled duty nights that we covered, during the day it was somewhat of a tossup, depending on who was in town. Like you we had a volly regional medic at nights, paid county medic during the day.

Sadly, after I moved, the stationed had to request paid staffing during the day. The call to volunteer is getting weaker with the newer generation, and people aren't wanting to spend their time helping others without getting paid for it. I loved volunteering, and I'd do it again if I could find a place down here that wasn't 100% paid.

As far as a solution to your staffing shortages, you'll have to get together at the monthly meeting and lay it on the table. Either people step up to the plate, or paid staffing will be requested. Most volly's don't want to give up their equipment to paid staff unless neccessary, hopefully you'll be able to get people to run more calls.

Good luck bro.:o

Well, I guess it's getting a little better. I was on the way home from work and a call came in. It was around 12:30am and they had 3 people plus the regional medic responding. The last couple of calls I went on at this time we had a full 3 man crew. On tonights call they had me stay in town available in case we had another call come in while the first crew is at the hospital...this happens quite often too.

Well, I guess it's getting a little better. I was on the way home from work and a call came in. It was around 12:30am and they had 3 people plus the regional medic responding. The last couple of calls I went on at this time we had a full 3 man crew. On tonights call they had me stay in town available in case we had another call come in while the first crew is at the hospital...this happens quite often too.

From the way you speak, it sounds to me you are a member of Falmouth Fire-EMS...

From the way you speak, it sounds to me you are a member of Falmouth Fire-EMS...

That is correct...you familiar with this service?

That is correct...you familiar with this service?

I spent three years with Engine Co. 3 on Allen Avenue Extension.

I spent three years with Engine Co. 3 on Allen Avenue Extension.

That's cool! I am at Central. Good dept. with good people. Finally we have a good Chief to lead us. Not to mention we finally have a Town Manager that is for us and not against us so that has made a huge difference too.

Too bad this isnt in Illinois. I know alot of people that would jump on this in a minute. As far as people not understanding change your name to the City Volunteer Fire Department

Honestly, I think the problem comes from having volunteer EMS. If volunteer EMS disappeared, I'd be pretty sure local government would be in a scramble to put together a paid system where you can have reliable EMS coverage around the clock, because that would be the EMT's primary job and they would be getting paid for night time shifts (not having to worry about having gotten enough sleep for their "real" job the next day).

I doubt that would work here. In NH the local government, and even the State legislature is composed of essentially unpaid volunteers. Maine isn't much different. The entire state has a population smaller than a lot of smaller suburbs in California. Most towns are largely rural and thinly populated and have less than a few thousand residents, only a handful have over 10,000. I know my taxes could not afford to pay for something like that. I also appreciate that we take care of people in town who can't afford to pay without sending collection agencies after them...I do it for the community, for free, and hope it will stay that way:).

Honestly, I think the problem comes from having volunteer EMS. If volunteer EMS disappeared, I'd be pretty sure local government would be in a scramble to put together a paid system where you can have reliable EMS coverage around the clock, because that would be the EMT's primary job and they would be getting paid for night time shifts (not having to worry about having gotten enough sleep for their "real" job the next day).

That sounds like somebody's been toking from the IAFF peace pipe.

Get out of the "LA and SF area" and you'll find that a paid service doesn't work everywhere.

In fact, that's, what, two anti-volunteer posts in half an hour? Hmm...

*sniff, sniff*

Wouldn't full-time paid professionals allow them to devote their careers and days to top notch EMS and training, thus providing a better service to the citizens?

I don't advocate FD-run EMS, either, as I've seen too many FFs forced to attend paramedic school against their will, which obviously leads to poor patient care (if one hates their job).

My opinion comes from discussion from those originally from those smaller rural towns and various discussions on problems with their volunteer systems.

I need to ask some questions tomorrow on an ambulance/rescue call. We get at least 3-5 a day. I know the rescue guys that show up are paid fulltime firefighters, but I'm not sure about our Community Ambulance folks...

They deal with ****bags as oftenas we do, had one guy who's "throat was slit by someone" decide to fight with the ambulance crew who were only trying to help him. This happens more often than I want to admit, a cop shouldn't be needed to get a patient in the hospital. This idiot, after fighting with the ambulance crew and then telling them he was gonna run when they opened the door was met by me and a partner when they opened the door. I'm not a small guy and his face changed real quick when he saw me standing outside the door.

I really hope our ambo's get paid, cuz the **** they deal with sometimes is not worth being a volly.

I answer calls to the county jail for free. It's in our service area. Knock on wood, I don't think we've ever had a serious problem there, but a patient never goes anywhere with us with out a correction officer present. Occasionally we take in drunks the police have pepper-sprayed. Those are a treat :D DV calls too....grrrr. All free, 'cause we love doing it.