Police Officer Preparation & Law Enforcement Resource - Archive

I'll post this in the open forum, because I want to see the opinions of non LEOs. Remember, the video has been edited so that you don't get to see the WHOLE truth.

http://www.wimp.com/resisting/

So I take it she died? Did they do an autopsy?

So I take it she died? Did they do an autopsy?

Uhhhh......I doubt it. You can hear the paramedics say, "There's nothing wrong with her."

So, was she just playing possum for attention, or did she expire?

:confused:

*Non-Leo Opinion*

I see nothing really wrong with it. She was warned to stop resisting, and didn't. The only thing I see wrong is how the deputy trying to 'choke' her is doing it. It looks like she's giving her a message. Should've just put her in a choke hold with her arm, not just her hands.

Just my .02's

The video has been media edited for the purpose of portraying the situation in a different light. Without the full, unedited video we cannot make a proper judgement on the occurance. But, with what the video shows, the suspect is not submitting to the will and control of the officers, which in PA is the definition of arrest. Therefore, if she is not submitting to an arrest, she is resisting arrest. The officers are in harm's way when she is resisting. You can clearly hear the officers commanding her to stop fighting, stop kicking. And if she is intoxicated, and that obviously worked up, she easily could have caused her body to faint. I have a friend who wrecked his motorcycle, and a half hour later passed out because of the adrenaline leaving his system. He was not intoxicated, but this could be a similar situation. And who knows if she is on any other drugs. If she was striking the cell walls and windows, and posing a threat to her safety, then I believe the officers were trying to do the right thing. If she passed out with just wrestling with the officers, what could have happened if they had tased her? Did their actions prevent a situation of Excited Delirium, possibly saving her life?

She refused to comply over and over again...She deserved what she got.
The paramedics were funny as hell though:D

She resisted... and resisted...and resisted. There was not much more the cops could have done.

I would expect to get hurt if I was not listening to a lawful command.

Looks Like She Got A Piece Of Some Hardcore Cuff'n And Stuff'n....
Lol
Those Paramedics Were Hilarious Though

I could care less what happens to someone when they choose to fight with the police.

As a matter of fact, if someone chooses to fight with the police, I think they should tote a major *** whuppin.

*Non-Leo Opinion*

I see nothing really wrong with it. She was warned to stop resisting, and didn't. The only thing I see wrong is how the deputy trying to 'choke' her is doing it. It looks like she's giving her a message. Should've just put her in a choke hold with her arm, not just her hands.

Just my .02's

Sounds like you're referring to the LVNR, Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint. In a lot of agencies that is considered deadly force and would thusly be a no-go in this situation. It looks to me like they werent trying to choke her, but hold her head still so she did not bite at the deputies.

Sounds like you're referring to the LVNR, Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint. In a lot of agencies that is considered deadly force and would thusly be a no-go in this situation. It looks to me like they werent trying to choke her, but hold her head still so she did not bite at the deputies.

Guess that's something I'll learn in the Academy :p Makes sense when you put into that perspective.

Did you hear the end? Two of the officers were indicted by a grand jury. For what? She wasn't hurt. Ridiculous.

Sorry to add my LEO opinion but ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME!#@$#?? She didn't even get hurt.

Also I imagine that the officer that looked like his hands were on her neck might have been trying to apply a PPCT but I could be wrong.

the stupid b*tch was resisting, coppers did what needed to be done

it still amazes me how STUPID people really are

That lady could have killed her by putting pressure on the arteries supplying her brain.


I don't think she was in danger to herself, how could she be? Did the cops just want to use force on her? From some of the comments I've read about this thread I see officers dehumanizing her over and over again and can't help but wonder if they take that attitude to work. God help us.

This is someone's daughter, someone's wife or girlfriend, maybe even it could be someone related to you someday.

Would you really want them treated like that?


When people are treated like animals, they'll act like them.

All the cops should be investigated and go before a review board.

God bless that poor girl.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but some people's comments on this would be just as unpopular if they were said somewhere else.


:mad:

That lady could have killed her by putting pressure on the arteries supplying her brain.


I don't think she was in danger to herself, how could she be? Did the cops just want to use force on her? From some of the comments I've read about this thread I see officers dehumanizing her over and over again and can't help but wonder if they take that attitude to work. God help us.

This is someone's daughter, someone's wife or girlfriend, maybe even it could be someone related to you someday.

Would you really want them treated like that?


When people are treated like animals, they'll act like them.

All the cops should be investigated and go before a review board.

God bless that poor girl.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but some people's comments on this would be just as unpopular if they were said somewhere else.


:mad:

:eek:

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Go hug a tree and eat some granola. Time for some new Birkenstocks?????

God bless that poor girl.


go smoke your funny stuff, ya hippie!

Although uninformed, that is the answer that scares me the most. The general public, or uninformed as they were called, do not understand the situation as breaking the law, only as police strongarming a helpless lady in custody. They don't see that their actions were based on training from facts and scientific research. That is the breach between police and the public. And mocking somebody's opinion because they don't have the training and experience that police have doesn't help the cause. Look at it this way. Every troll that comes here and gets mocked, takes the rammifications and instantly places their distrust on their local police.

:eek:

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Why don't you educate me then.

Go hug a tree and eat some granola. Time for some new Birkenstocks?????

Maybe you should hang out with some and feel like a human does again.


go smoke your funny stuff, ya hippie!

Go beat your wife and kids, punk. Because that is exactly what most people would think that you do based on your comments.


Although uninformed, that is the answer that scares me the most. The general public, or uninformed as they were called, do not understand the situation as breaking the law, only as police strongarming a helpless lady in custody. They don't see that their actions were based on training from facts and scientific research. That is the breach between police and the public. And mocking somebody's opinion because they don't have the training and experience that police have doesn't help the cause. Look at it this way. Every troll that comes here and gets mocked, takes the rammifications and instantly places their distrust on their local police.

Explain more about the training from facts and scientific research. I'm interested in your opinion.

Why am I labeled a troll?

You are right about that last sentence.

I don't see what was done wrong. She found herself in that cell for a reason. If she wouldn't have fought the cops she would have been out in what a day at most? I think it's BS that the two cops are in trouble. I'm not seconded gusses their choice but would have using pepper spray helped or not because of the small area they were in?

Dang he was banned....



May he and his hairy armpit sister be sterile as to not contaminate the gene pool.

.

This is someone's daughter, someone's wife or girlfriend, maybe even it could be someone related to you someday.

Would you really want them treated like that?



Response to sentence #1: It also could be your attacker or killer.

Response to sentence #2: Yes. An action deserves a reaction.

That lady could have killed her by putting pressure on the arteries supplying her brain.


I don't think she was in danger to herself, how could she be? Did the cops just want to use force on her? From some of the comments I've read about this thread I see officers dehumanizing her over and over again and can't help but wonder if they take that attitude to work. God help us.

This is someone's daughter, someone's wife or girlfriend, maybe even it could be someone related to you someday.

Would you really want them treated like that?


When people are treated like animals, they'll act like them.

All the cops should be investigated and go before a review board.

God bless that poor girl.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but some people's comments on this would be just as unpopular if they were said somewhere else.


:mad:


Im sorry Im seeing this after you got banned.

I see nothing wrong. Im more pissed that moron got banned before I could respond to him.

I had a big response all typed up, then did a bit more research. This is an interesting link:

http://www.flpba.org/news/news.php?article=6

Lisa Tanner, the girl in the video, was arrested for drunk and disorderly conduct as a result of a call regarding loud music. It turns out Lisa is the daughter of State Attorney John Tanner. Tanner was asked to investigate complaints of use of force within the police and jail system. What better way to launch that than on the investigation of the arrest of his own daughter?

She was arrested for a valid reason. She was held for a valid reason. However there are a couple questions the officers will have to answer. One is why was she refused a breath test? Another is how did they determine she was a danger to herself?

I'm not asking these questions out of malice or looking for any wrongdoing, but because they should be asked, and probably have very valid reasons. She could have been refused a test because at that point she was either A) combative, or B) they determined her being unruly and resisting was enough, and no longer were going to charge her with being drunk.

And it would be good to find out why she was a danger to herself. If they answer that it just makes them look better. The biggest question, the one that makes them look bad, is regarding the head restraint technique. I have no knowledge of what's correct to do in that situation, but from the mere observation of the video, it was a risky move.

And Taxx, thanks for asking this and opening to non-LEO's. It's a great opportunity to ask questions and find out where our views are incorrect or our train of thoughts may be improved.

Firstly the head restraint looks more like a jaw restraint to me. If you wanted to grab someone around the throat, there is a real easy way to do it. It usually results in cutting off the airway and is quite dangerous. Looks more like the officer was trying to avoid this, most likely to prevent biting from the prisoner.

I would assume that the idiot girl was posing a risk to herself. From someone who has worked in Police cells, like this one, this is a once a night thing, if not more often. And we don't just go into a cell and rough people up for a bit of a laugh or coz we are bored. There would have been a reason and if you believe otherwise you are an idiot.

What are the other options? Let her do what she likes? I have seen people like her throwing themselves into walls and windows, just because they are drunk, or an idiot, or into self harming. What would be the options?

Go in and stop her. We do have a duty of care to her once she is in our custody. This will take at least 4 officers to do safely. Normally if it goes this far, the person in the cell doesn't just sit there and do what she is told.

I love the way the reporter says "four officers" like it is excessive. Anyone want to try and restrain me one on one? Or even two on one? Keep in mind you have to abide by laws and rules, and i don't. I am allowed to bite, kick, scratch, spit, punch. You are not. One more thing to consider.

Secondly, we could just ignore her and let her get more and more agitated to the point she starts headbutting walls and actually injures herself. Then of course we would be in trouble for not doing something.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I also like the way the video is edited. I am sure the unedited version shows her doing stuff that would more than warrant this type of reaction.

The fact that her Dad is the man responsible for investigating this type of stuff makes it smell strongly of a set-up. I can smell a law suit in the making. The fact that the medics thought there was nothing wrong with her, also make it smell strongly of girl looking for money. Seen it done a million times, and it always resulted in the idiot getting absolutely nothing but more charges.

Our department has had issues with this sort of complaint resulting in numerous officers being suspended and charged with assault while working in this type of environment. Of course the first big one hit the media, and now every drug addict POS puts in a complaint now every time they are in the cells.

Since late last year there have been nearly 100 complaints of police assault in the cells. All have been investigated and at least three I know of have resulted in the officers going to court (one was sacked and is now taking the department to the cleaners for unfair dismissal - and rightly so).

None of them have been found guilty of anything and all have been thrown out by the courts. And believe me, in this town, the courts are far from on our side, before anyone thinks that. There was just no evidence when the video was reviewed in it's entirity.

Oh, and I just watched it again.

You even hear one of the officers say, "Biting" just before you see the female officer grab her jaw.

Of course the girl says, "no I am not."

Sort of like when you are telling a suspect to stop resisting and they say the same thing, despite having hold of your shirt or belt, or a car door or whatever.

Obviously it was the Police that taped this as evidence that what they were doing was right.

Love to see the whole tape instead of just what is shown. :rolleyes:

what the hell are the indicted for... thats BS

for those of you that saw it here is the update

all deputies were cleared of any criminal charges

a probe was sent to investigate State Attorney John Tanner, however no charges were ever filed

at least the deputies got off

Just caught this in the post above. Since when do we have to give a breath test for something like this?

The woman was a drunken attention w h o r e. I would have just left her in the cell & ignored her. She would have been fine. Glad to see everyone was exonerated.

My .02 as a detention officer (non-sworn position). One of the first things said in the video was that the officers perceived her as a threat to herself (presumably due to vocal threats and physical actions). This alone is enought to be put in the chair. Secondly she resisted being restrained and ignored the officers commands... i.e. resisting arrest by definition. Thirdly she while resisting she was kicking and possibly trying to bite (we are told not to restrain the head in that manner unless absolutely necessary) which means she was assaulting the LEOs.

The whole idea of not getting a BAC is rediculous. In my area a BAC isnt required for drunk and disorderly/DOC intox charges.

Four officers is by no means excessive... the training video for our chair said a minimum of 2 officer but 4 or 5 is recommended. When you get into the small confines of a jail cell theres plenty of ways for you to get hurt when trying to control a prisoner.

This is a nightly occurence in most jails... not necessarily the chair but DOC Intox idiots comin through and because they think they were wronged somehow, they want to start headbutting doors and punching walls. That person is my responsibility... any injury (or god forbid, death) that occurs on my waych means my ***... possibly in criminal court. So the way i see it, if you say or do anything indicating that you will or have done something to harm yourself you will be restrained in some way and the paramedics will be called. If you'd like to refuse treatment, be my guest, that just helps my cause.

But this is a prime example of why the media only creates a larger rift between civilians and LEOs.

That lady could have killed her by putting pressure on the arteries supplying her brain.


I don't think she was in danger to herself, how could she be? Did the cops just want to use force on her? From some of the comments I've read about this thread I see officers dehumanizing her over and over again and can't help but wonder if they take that attitude to work. God help us.

This is someone's daughter, someone's wife or girlfriend, maybe even it could be someone related to you someday.

Would you really want them treated like that?


When people are treated like animals, they'll act like them.

All the cops should be investigated and go before a review board.

God bless that poor girl.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but some people's comments on this would be just as unpopular if they were said somewhere else.


:mad:

anybody else get any negative rep from this wacko?!?!:mad:

Youll learn real quick that we as cops are guilty until proven innocent. And even when we are found innocent our rep is all shot to sheet.

anybody else get any negative rep from this wacko?!?!:mad:


He's been banned. Any rep by him doesn't mean anything. Tool...

ohhhh my bad....

We don't use those chairs.

Here, she would have been thrown in a padded cell and she could bounce off all the walls she likes.

If she started to use her clothes to harm herself, she would be forcefully stripped naked and thrown in the padded cell.

If this did not stop after some time (a few hours) she would probably be held down, some ambos would give her a sedative and she would wake up in the psych ward at the hospital.

I'll post this in the open forum, because I want to see the opinions of non LEOs. Remember, the video has been edited so that you don't get to see the WHOLE truth.


I was going to post a reply stating that you will most likely not get, "The po-leece offocer beat da snot out of dat poor woman." because of the fact that this is a Law Enforcement site and generally speaking, people that have an interest, respect for, or are LEO's.

Then I read further. I came across this post.



This is someone's daughter, someone's wife or girlfriend, maybe even it could be someone related to you someday.

Would you really want them treated like that?

When people are treated like animals, they'll act like them.

All the cops should be investigated and go before a review board.

God bless that poor girl.


Unfortunately, banning an account or IP address is only temporary for someone like that.

I am new to the site and I will with-hold my orignal opinion until I have further researched the "hippies."

I was going to post a reply stating that you will most likely not get, "The po-leece offocer beat da snot out of dat poor woman." because of the fact that this is a Law Enforcement site and generally speaking, people that have an interest, respect for, or are LEO's.

Then I read further. I came across this post.



Unfortunately, banning an account or IP address is only temporary for someone like that.

I am new to the site and I will with-hold my orignal opinion until I have further researched the "hippies."


LOL.....I posted it, because we get all types of people that come to this site. I thought it would be entertaining to see what the "average citizen" thinks of this edited and jaded video. The same type of droul that is broadcast by some news agencies. It seems to always get spun a way to make the "good guys" look like bad guys, because it sells.

I was impressed with alot of Non LEO's responses. It gave me faith that there are some people out there that believe people can act wicked and that they must be dealt with. There is evil in this world and there is wickedness. Some have taken on the task of dealing with that darkness.

Most Non LEOs believe if a guy is 10 feet away from you with a knife in his hand that he poses no threat and that police shouldn't even have their guns out. People believe that because a guy won't take his hands out of his pockets that shouldn't be a concern for their safety. All I can say is read the FBI UCRs and you will see how "average" police work turns deadly. Officer should act overtly aggressive in order to be safe.

I always use the normal test. Is it normal for someone to still hold a knife after I have told him to put it down, while I have a gun pointed at him. Uh....no....this should be cause for alarm. Is it normal for someone to keep their hands in their pockets after a police officer tells him to take them out....uh.....no...unless they are hiding something, knife, gun, pipe bomb. I hope I never go soft, because the day I do, will probably be the day that I get my own page in the FBI UCR.

Much of what I was going to post was covered by George. Anyway, I've said it before, I'll say it again - There is nothing more feral than a drunk female.


She was arrested for a valid reason. She was held for a valid reason. However there are a couple questions the officers will have to answer. One is why was she refused a breath test? Another is how did they determine she was a danger to herself?

I don't know about where you are, but we don't give prisoners breath tests. They can ask and demand all they want, it's not done. There are various reasons for this, but as far as the courts are concerned, I, as a Police Officer, can give expert testimony on whether or not a person is drunk. It's the only thing I can give 'expert' testimony on, so if I say you're drunk, you're drunk. As far as her being a danger to herself, as mentioned, the whole video is not shown. I have footage of an incident that happened in our cells where a guy ran at the cell door and deliberately knocked himself out. Drunks often headbutt walls, kick and punch walls and doors and the only thing they accomplish is to injure themselves.

I'm not asking these questions out of malice or looking for any wrongdoing, but because they should be asked, and probably have very valid reasons. She could have been refused a test because at that point she was either A) combative, or B) they determined her being unruly and resisting was enough, and no longer were going to charge her with being drunk.

I can't speak for that jurisdiction of course, but if she behaved that way in our cells she would get additinal charges of Disrupting the Good Order Of A Police Gaol, as well as drunk. We do breath tests on drivers, not drunks

And it would be good to find out why she was a danger to herself. If they answer that it just makes them look better. The biggest question, the one that makes them look bad, is regarding the head restraint technique. I have no knowledge of what's correct to do in that situation, but from the mere observation of the video, it was a risky move.

As for the neck hold, as George mentioned it looks more like the deputy is trying to not get bitten and to stop the girl from biting others. I have had some nasty bites over the years, so this hold looks familiar. :D

And Taxx, thanks for asking this and opening to non-LEO's. It's a great opportunity to ask questions and find out where our views are incorrect or our train of thoughts may be improved.


And, as far as four officers in the cell, I'll just back-up what George said. There is far less chance of anyone getting hurt, Police and offender, with four officers as opposed to one or two. Each offier has to use less force to achieve control of the subject and, for example, can focus on a limb each, rather than trying to control two flailing arms, a moving head with teeth, and two flailing legs. This is standard practice the world over. It's the same when we arrest crooks; if I have to arrest a violent offender by myself, chances are we are both going to get hurt, one on one, punches will be thrown, maybe I'll use my baton, maybe I'll win when I beat the crook into submission or maybe I'll get my *** handed to me. With two or more cops, there is more chance the crook will get taken to the ground with the minimum of fuss and mess and controlled, then cuffed. Minimal or no injuries for all.

Going into cells is something we try to avoid. The prisoners are for the most part, ignored, if all they are doing is ranting and raving, but we also have a duty of care to make sure they aren't injured, even if it is by their own actions.

Thanks for the reply Wombat, couple things I didn't think about. I'd spaced on the fact that a breath test isn't required, that police testimony is enough. I've also seen the effect alcohol has on a persons ability to headbutt. A friend of mine has this problem. Was much worse when he was younger as I understand, but ya gotta watch out for him. Bout the 5th beer he wants to be reminded he's got a harder head than his friends... so we give him a 6th and he just turns into a big baby... you know... "aww I love you guys, I don't mean any harm". Hilarious really.

Anyhoo. I was told by an officer during a ride along that he tries to behave as if he's always on camera. I don't see anything wrong with the video - simply asking questions for the benefit of people that may not understand the officers' point of view. But thanks again for the replies, always something to learn.

I'm not a LEO, but I am a cadet at the Police Academy, so my opinion is not completely unbiased. Besides what has already been said, from a non-LEO standpoint I don't see a problem with 4 officers handling this woman. It seems to me that it is a lot less harmful for the subject if you have 4-5 officers handling each of her limbs vs 1-2 officers having to use more extreme force to control her.