Police Officer Preparation & Law Enforcement Resource - Archive

If there is a call in which someone determines that at Ambulance/Medic/FD is needed can an arriving police officer on the scene advise to cancel ?

We have such an issue that our dispatch automatically sends fire and Ems for any vehicle that goes off of the road , is overturned or involving a motorcycle. Generally, I don't have a problem with that BUT , there are many times that we arrive first ( all of our nightime Fire/EMS are volunteers) and can easily assess the scene to determine if any other equipment is needed.

We have tried to tell them that if we cancel , and they continue in running hot and in someway get into a crash, they could be RESPONSIBLE. Doesn't seem to phase them much.

It's been a while since I sat behind the radio, so policy may have changed. As a field responder, if dispatch says cancel, I will gladly cancel. I have better things to be doing, like eating, sleeping, or watching TV. :D

Of course, nobody wants to be responsible for canceling EMS/FD if it really was needed. Field units may be advised to "proceed in with caution" (as opposed to me normally driving with reckless abandon???) if there's a potential that services won't be needed, but some dispatchers just won't say the "c" word (cancel!). I've been told, "Unit X, be advised, Unit Y is on scene." Yeah, so... um... do you want me to keep going, or what?

More often than not, however, it works one of three ways:

1) 911 gets a call back from the caller advising to cancel, and dispatch advises us to proceed in with caution for a possible refusal of service. Barring very extenuating circumstances (major disasters or shortages of units), we won't cancel just on the caller's request.

2) PD gets on scene, advises that services are not needed and that we can cancel. For example, a motor vehicle crash without injuries, patient gone on arrival, false call, etc. In that case, since an emergency responder is there, we will cancel. (We typically do NOT cancel for Joe Bob Firefighter calling in on his cell phone telling us one thing or another, as we can't really verify Joe Bob's identity over the phone.)

3) PD gets on scene and needs us or isn't sure. We continue in, sometimes PD gives patient updates, sometimes they don't. Sometimes police dispatch relays to fire, sometimes they don't. Sometimes fire dispatch relays to the ambulances, sometimes they don't. No matter what, we're still coming.

Like I said, I would love to cancel. Sometimes we just don't get the word in time (or at all), or sometimes asinine policy keeps a whole parade going. Might be something worth bringing up with your comm center to see if the responders are actually getting the word to cancel, too.

Often our dispatch doesn't always advise Fire/Ems that we do not need them. A recent case, we (PD) arrive on scene for a passed out person. It turns out to be a homeless person sleeping, before Fire/EMS arrive, we wake the person. We then disregard Fire/EMS and run the individual. The person comes back with mulitple warrants (22). We cuff the subject up and are ready to transport when both Fire and EMS arrive on scene. They look at us with disbelief, as if we've done something wrong.

...So much for PD being able to disregard Fire and EMS.

If there is a call in which someone determines that at Ambulance/Medic/FD is needed can an arriving police officer on the scene advise to cancel?

Our city fire and/or medics run code to ANY call of service, period. I've arrived on quite a few case of which I've informed Communicatioins to wave them off. Our EOC is a combined Police and Fire, so the information IS relayed to them. Fire and EMS don't care. They will keep rolling until they reach the scene before they disengage and return home.

I have yet to figure out why.

I know in AL that if dispatch calls out resuce to anything, only an EMT, Paramedic, Nurse, or an MD can cancel an Ambulance, But that is hardly the case. Alot of Police Officers, Firefighters cancel them all the time.

3) PD gets on scene and needs us or isn't sure. We continue in, sometimes PD gives patient updates, sometimes they don't. Sometimes police dispatch relays to fire, sometimes they don't. Sometimes fire dispatch relays to the ambulances, sometimes they don't. No matter what, we're still coming.

I have been kind of wondering about this. How useful are patient updates? I don't want to tie up the air with "Well, now he's turning blue" if it isn't useful. Ambulances and fire trucks can only drive so fast, and I don't want to add undue stress. I've heard too many horror stories about officers getting on the air to scream "Hurry up that ambulance" two or three times.

I have been kind of wondering about this. How useful are patient updates? I don't want to tie up the air with "Well, now he's turning blue" if it isn't useful. Ambulances and fire trucks can only drive so fast, and I don't want to add undue stress. I've heard too many horror stories about officers getting on the air to scream "Hurry up that ambulance" two or three times.

I personally like an update if the patient's condition is dramatically different from what it was dispatched as, or if the patient begins to go downhill real quick. Example: If a patient goes unconscious or into cardiac arrest, I would like to know, so we can get additional help rolling and change our game plan. Likewise, if it was supposed to be a cardiac arrest, it's good to know if it's not.

Similar thinking can be applied to fire and rescue calls. If dispatched for a car fire, and it turns out to be a car on fire in an attached garage, that changes the whole response. A car accident is one thing, a car off of a bridge and upside-down in a river is another thing entirely. The sooner specialized resources can get moving, the better.

Remember, information is more useful than "hurry up!" If the patient is bad off, tell me how or why he's bad off. You don't need to use medical terms. "Turning blue," "blood spurting everywhere," and "can't move his legs" are very descriptive, and they give me more of an idea what I'm going to encounter. It might not change my driving since, like you said, we can only go so fast. But it can get additional resources moving, and make sure that we grab the right equipment right off the bat when we arrive.

I'm not saying you all need to be fire, EMS and dispatchers too. However, it might be worth seeing what different response profiles look for your fire and EMS where you are. Sometimes, a matter of wording changes a response profile greatly. Examples where I am: Trouble breathing gets a medic unit, whereas ineffective breathing gets a medic unit, supervisor, and fire company for manpower. An appliance on fire in a house gets two fire engines, whereas anything OTHER THAN an appliance on fire in a house (including a car in an attached garage) gets a full assignment of four engines, a ladder company, chief, etc.

Oh, yes, and one more update I really, REALLY like: corrected location. Please, please, PLEASE for the love of Pete, if you find the call at a location other than the dispatched one, let us know! We'd like to come and play, too! :D





... wow, do I talk too much? :o

Our policy at dispatch is that our officers are not medical responders and due to that can not cancel medical units responding. The only persons who can are firefighters or other EMT's. They feel that an officer may not see certain signs of illness because he or she is not a trained medic. So when an officer advises to cancel medics we just have to ignore them. Other departments in the area do cancel when their officers/deputies advise to.

I cancel them only when Im 100% sure that they are not needed. If a call comes in the 2 vehicles have hit head on and there are body parts laying about the roadway and I get there and there is a vehicle that bumped another in the rear, then I will cancel. But if Im in doubt then I let them continue on.
I only had one squad that constantly continued on. I had a talk with them and advised them that while I appreciated them they were tying up my accident scene and it will hurt me deeply for them to continue doing this because I would be forced to charge them with Improper Stopping on the Highway. I told them that the judge may throw it out but that they would have to take a day off work to appear.
Im not an butthead but this was after numerous times of one ambulance, one crash truck, and 5 or 6 POV's at a MINOR MVC

Our policy at dispatch is that our officers are not medical responders and due to that can not cancel medical units responding. The only persons who can are firefighters or other EMT's. They feel that an officer may not see certain signs of illness because he or she is not a trained medic. So when an officer advises to cancel medics we just have to ignore them. Other departments in the area do cancel when their officers/deputies advise to.
That's just retarded.

If we cancel a firetruck they are just as happy to turn around and go back to bed/playing their Xbox/go back to dinner...or whatever it is they were doing before dispatch inconvenienced them.

Where I dispatch it is policy that a Police Officer on scene CANNOT cancel a fire/ems unit. They can only update the responding personnel of what they have, for example no injuries, no fire, false alarm etc. It just falls into the whole liability thing ya know? If a Police Officer pulls up on scene and says there is no injuries here at this MVA cancel EMS and EMS does cancel and the patient actually had internal bleeding but no obvious signs of trauma, to me that is big time negligence. I dunno of any police officers who would want to be dragged into that lawsuit. Why not play it safe and just give an update to responding personnel and let them cancel themselves if needed. If they get in an accident on the way its on them not the police officer. You advised them that its minor injuries or no injuries, they chose to keep reponding hot so its on them not the officer. Its just how our County Dispatch works

Oh yeah also we are a very rural county where everyone is volunteer, if that sheds more light

Oh yeah also we are a very rural county where everyone is volunteer, if that sheds more light
It does shed a lot of light on it.
You guys don't have anything to do so why trust the word of an officer when he says "this cat doesn't want to go to the hospital"? Especially when it means you get to keep blowing through traffic with your little lights going while you're leaning out the window yelling "wooooooooo".

Out of curiosity...you mentioned someone having internal injuries and his death being blamed on a police officer. Do you carry the equipment around in your hand-me-down firetruck to diagnose internal injuries?







Ok. Sorry. Too much?

Yeah, well the cops keep ignoring me too when I tell 'em this cat doesn't want to go to jail... :)

I'm a dispatcher, not a police officer, EMS, or firefighter. The point I was trying to make is that sometimes there are internal injuries that cannot be detected by just looking at someone. Does a police officer take the blood pressure of a patient or the pulse before saying no injuries? The point I was trying to make is that EMS should show up and if the patient does not want to go to the hospital than in our county they sign a Refused Medical Attention form. This takes liability off of everyone, takes it off the EMS and Police.

And we don't have Hand Me Down firetrucks or anything in our county. I said we were rural, not poor. Our Firehouses and EMS buildings are loaded with brand new useless equipment, the only reason why they have it is because they have the money, not because they need it

It depends on your local SOPs as determined by a MOU between Police/Fire-EMS and sometimes Medical Direction. In some areas it is procedure that Police and Fire/EMS have different commands and as such operate autonomously. Meaning even if Police advise that the patients have left the scene until Fire Command cancels the ambulance is still coming (This is only the case if your Fire/EMS system is under one command and your area doesn’t run a third service independent EMS agency). In our area the SOP is that we get on scene unless fire cancels us. Even if police advise otherwise we listen to fire. Police can request that Fire tell us to down grade but we will almost always still show up. Hey look at it on the bright-side at least your not liable if someone sues after the accident for medical malpractice b/c you don’t have command over fire or the ambulance. If your system is like most, change will only happen once that fire or EMS rig gets into an accident.

Consider this, too, for what it's worth.

I really don't get off on driving a big ol' beastly pig of a beat up ambulance lights and sirens through congested traffic, not even on a good day. When it's dark and rainy or snowy and rush hour has things super jammed up, I absolutely despise it.

I'll really be unhappy if I run hot just to get there and find out that the patient doesn't want me there. There are usually three questions I ask everyone involved: "Are you hurt?" "Do you need an ambulance?" "Do you want to go to the hospital?" If there are no visible injuries and the answer to all three questions is "no," I'm going home because there is nobody on scene who requires medical attention. Same holds true for the good intent calls where the "unconscious" subject was actually napping while waiting at the bus stop. (Really, if a patient is conscious, alert and oriented to person, place, time and event, even if they are injured, I can't treat them if they don't want me to. I cannot even touch them. That means that I have no means of assessing them for internal injuries anyway.)

I'll be super unhappy if I'm on my way to one of these calls, and I am involved in a traffic collision. I'll be really uber super mega unhappy if I'm involved in a traffic collision after someone on scene tried to cancel me, and nobody passed that on to me.

In our County if the Police Officer on scene says to cancel EMS we HAVE to relay the request, but we have to re word it as a request and not a command. If the officer says, County, cancel EMS. We then call either the rig or a line officer responding and tell them the officer on scene is requesting you to cancel due to no injuries, your pleasure? Sometimes the Squad Captain will say cancel my units, in that case we will re-tone the EMS agency and say per the squad captain cancel. If they say have my units standby I will proceed in, we re-tone it and state that. I don't a hundred percent agree to it but for whatever reason fire dept doesn't get along with the EMS agencies and they both dont get along with the PD so we as the dispatchers get BS policies and political BS thrown at us and we're stuck in the middle, but anyway thats how we do it

Well whenever there is a report of fire, I see my FD rolling out everything they have at the station closest to the location of the fire. A few months ago, I heard and saw a huge convoy of a ladder, engine, and a few special unit trucks coming into my neighborhood. I watched, and saw that they all left within two minutes. They take no chances.

I'm a dispatcher, not a police officer, EMS, or firefighter. The point I was trying to make is that sometimes there are internal injuries that cannot be detected by just looking at someone. Does a police officer take the blood pressure of a patient or the pulse before saying no injuries? The point I was trying to make is that EMS should show up and if the patient does not want to go to the hospital than in our county they sign a Refused Medical Attention form. This takes liability off of everyone, takes it off the EMS and Police.

And we don't have Hand Me Down firetrucks or anything in our county. I said we were rural, not poor. Our Firehouses and EMS buildings are loaded with brand new useless equipment, the only reason why they have it is because they have the money, not because they need it

If a person tells me they are uninjured, doesn't want EMS, and I see nothing leading to an indication they are injured, I am going to cancel EMS so they are available for someone who really needs them. I'm not going to have them roll out just to have someone sign a form. That is the kind of thought process that makes cops & EMS nuts. Without putting on a first aid class here, most first responders can tell if EMS is needed. Let the people at the scene do their job without second guessing them!

Here, we can cancel the ambulance if they are not required. No problems there.

The Firies though, once they start rolling, you can not stop them. They ahve their own policy that once they get a cal, they go, regardless. Nobody can cancel them.

We cancel all the time. And it works. If we get onscene and nobody is injured we'll call off EMS. There's no point if everyone onscene is refusing rescue.

Our officers can give us additional info, but they cannot have fire/EMS cancel. For those of you that can and do cancel fire/ems responses your in the shrinking minority. It's simply a bad idea and has huge liability isuses. Let EMS come and determine if a transport is not needed or needed. Around here the medics have to get a release or refusal signed by the "patient" regardless, they can't just turn around and go home once they are requested. This would be akin to a fire response turning around just because the alarm company that called in the fire alarm called back to cancel because they got a reset. A reset does not mean that there is not a fire....

Our officers can give us additional info, but they cannot have fire/EMS cancel. For those of you that can and do cancel fire/ems responses your in the shrinking minority.
Don't think so.

It's simply a bad idea and has huge liability isuses.
Another dispatcher/lawyer. Awsome. FWIW I think you're 100% wrong.

Here's a fun scenario: The gong goes off... Engine Company One, Ambulance One respond for the MVC with auto fire.

As fire/EMS is rolling down the road, police are on scene advising: No accident, it was an overheated car, cancel fire and EMS.

We don't cancel, and a 20 ton fire engine running lights and sirens to an overheated car (because PD can't cancel fire or EMS) slams into a minivan full of kids.

What's the liability issue look like on that one?

People need to finally realize that the daily activities of the world cannot be governed entirely by the quest to find the best way to save our rears from liability. Bad stuff can happen under any circumstances, and when it does, you deal with it.

Don't think so.

Another dispatcher/lawyer. Awsome. FWIW I think you're 100% wrong.

There's a difference between thinking something and knowing something. I know because I've researched it enough to know the better way to do things. I am a Telecommunicaor, but not a lawyer, but it was a nice attempt at a slam.




Here's a fun scenario: The gong goes off... Engine Company One, Ambulance One respond for the MVC with auto fire.

As fire/EMS is rolling down the road, police are on scene advising: No accident, it was an overheated car, cancel fire and EMS.

We don't cancel, and a 20 ton fire engine running lights and sirens to an overheated car (because PD can't cancel fire or EMS) slams into a minivan full of kids.

What's the liability issue look like on that one?

People need to finally realize that the daily activities of the world cannot be governed entirely by the quest to find the best way to save our rears from liability. Bad stuff can happen under any circumstances, and when it does, you deal with it.

The liability with that lies in the policy in responding to calls lights and sirens. It has nothing to do with police cancelling calls or dispatch. They should downgrade the response to code 4 (no lights, no sirens) until they get on scene.

And I agree that all daily activities cannot be governed by the threat of liability, but it exists none-the-less and can be avoided by having SOP's that make sense like not allowing non medical personell cancel an ambulance because the person "looks ok" or says they "feel fine". And not allowing 20 ton fire trucks respond code to a car sitting in the middle of the road not on fire.

They should downgrade the response to code 4 (no lights, no sirens) until they get on scene.

Forgive me, but that's rediculous. The fire department is the FIRE department, not the fire and mechanic department. I'm not a mechanic, nor is a police officer. The cop is just as qualified as a firefighter to say, "yep, no car fire, just a mechanical problem." We can't do anything more for a flat tire or an overheated car. Call a tow truck.


And not allowing 20 ton fire trucks respond code to a car sitting in the middle of the road not on fire.

But remember, we can't trust the cops on scene. As we've established, we can't trust what they say regarding a medical call, since they're not paramedics. Obviously, we can't trust them to say the car's not on fire, since they're not firefighters. I mean, that must be true, since we have to continue our response, right? But then, I guess we trust them a little bit, since we can respond non-emergency?

It seems like the issue here is that every emergency responder (fire, EMS, PD or communications) must think that every other responder is a blooming IDIOT and we can't trust ANYONE. Let's just put a cop, a firefighter, a paramedic, and a dispatcher in a car together, so any potential response can have everything that would ever be needed.

Now I've about hit my nonsense threshhold with this thread, so I'm bowing out. G'night folks.

Our officers can give us additional info, but they cannot have fire/EMS cancel. For those of you that can and do cancel fire/ems responses your in the shrinking minority. It's simply a bad idea and has huge liability isuses. Let EMS come and determine if a transport is not needed or needed. Around here the medics have to get a release or refusal signed by the "patient" regardless, they can't just turn around and go home once they are requested. This would be akin to a fire response turning around just because the alarm company that called in the fire alarm called back to cancel because they got a reset. A reset does not mean that there is not a fire....

Pfffffffffffffft......... Give me a freaking break. I can'd EMS when not needed for 30 years without a problem. Most cops are smart enough to tell when someone needs EMS & when someone doesnt. The last thing I'm going to do is have EMS rolling code 3 when not needed. Your know it all attitude just doesnt cut it with me. You sit there in your "telecommunication center" looking at your computer screens & you think you know more than the first responder on the scene who has the complete picture. You don't. You never will.

There's a difference between thinking something and knowing something. I know because I've researched it enough to know the better way to do things.
Ok. I'm willing to say you're right if you show me a single lawsuit that has been the result of a police officer cancelling EMS. I shouldn't have to wait long since you've researched it so much.

I am a Telecommunicaor, but not a lawyer, but it was a nice attempt at a slam.
Thanks for correcting me. I have no idea why I accidentially called you a dispatcher since you clearly telecommunicate all day.
Hell, if you're like most "telecommunicators" I know the appropriate title would actually be "LeaveMeTheHellAloneI'mEating-anier".

Pfffffffffffffft......... Give me a freaking break. I can'd EMS when not needed for 30 years without a problem. Most cops are smart enough to tell when someone needs EMS & when someone doesnt. The last thing I'm going to do is have EMS rolling code 3 when not needed. Your know it all attitude just doesnt cut it with me. You sit there in your "telecommunication center" looking at your computer screens & you think you know more than the first responder on the scene who has the complete picture. You don't. You never will.

I like how you assume so much with knowing so little about me, suffice to say your wrong. I also like how some of the officers here automatically go into 'bash the dispatcher' mode when they have one disagaree with them or, God forbid, state their own opinion which is based on how things work in their area. It's also good to see they view all dispatchers with the same old blanket view instead of knowing there are good ones out there.These are all great ways to promote professionalism and respect within the public safety field. It's good to see we can have a good debate on the merits of the topic without getting off topic....

Forgive me, but that's rediculous. The fire department is the FIRE department, not the fire and mechanic department. I'm not a mechanic, nor is a police officer. The cop is just as qualified as a firefighter to say, "yep, no car fire, just a mechanical problem." We can't do anything more for a flat tire or an overheated car. Call a tow truck.



But remember, we can't trust the cops on scene. As we've established, we can't trust what they say regarding a medical call, since they're not paramedics. Obviously, we can't trust them to say the car's not on fire, since they're not firefighters. I mean, that must be true, since we have to continue our response, right? But then, I guess we trust them a little bit, since we can respond non-emergency?

It seems like the issue here is that every emergency responder (fire, EMS, PD or communications) must think that every other responder is a blooming IDIOT and we can't trust ANYONE. Let's just put a cop, a firefighter, a paramedic, and a dispatcher in a car together, so any potential response can have everything that would ever be needed.

Now I've about hit my nonsense threshhold with this thread, so I'm bowing out. G'night folks.

+1



If PD gets on they can tell us there is nothing...to step it down...or anything like that. Cops aren't stupid.

Either way if we get cancled either a Deputy Chief or another Officer FF or one truck will respond to get the report information

But yeah...Check your SOP's because someone MIGHT be wrong here ;)

I like how you assume so much with knowing so little about me, suffice to say your wrong. I also like how some of the officers here automatically go into 'bash the dispatcher' mode when they have one disagaree with them or, God forbid, state their own opinion which is based on how things work in their area. It's also good to see they view all dispatchers with the same old blanket view instead of knowing there are good ones out there.These are all great ways to promote professionalism and respect within the public safety field. It's good to see we can have a good debate on the merits of the topic without getting off topic....

No Mr. "Telecommunicator" , I base my opinion of you upon your smug comments here. The fact a few other dispatchers share your know it all attitude isn't the point. Just dispatch & let those of us at the scene do our jobs without your BS. We know what we are doing.

I like how you assume so much with knowing so little about me, suffice to say your wrong.
Come on, now, you really didn't like it one bit. You actually got butt hurt, didn't ya?


I also like how some of the officers here automatically go into 'bash the dispatcher' mode when they have one disagaree with them or, God forbid, state their own opinion which is based on how things work in their area.
No, you didn't "like" that either. Stop with the false statements, please. :rolleyes:

You would be much better off if you simply relay the message, like a good dispatcher should; that officers on scene have stated rescue can be cancelled.

Once you have done that, like a good dispatcher should, it is now on the shoulders of the EMS or fire crew if they want to continue to the scene. Cops don't really care what the SOP's of the EMS or Fire are. The cops simply asked you to cancel. You wouldn't be getting bashed if you simply did as requested.

But, you come on here and preach like you are the God of Telecommunications. You imply that the dumb cops don't know anything about vicarious liability and are negligent in relaying information that a subject in the field has verbally refused medical treatment.

Your self-ego transfers fairly easy to your posts. It would benefit you to turn it down a few notches.
It's also good to see they view all dispatchers with the same old blanket view instead of knowing there are good ones out there. These are all great ways to promote professionalism and respect within the public safety field.

Ah, are you "one of the good ones" out there? You would do much better promoting professionalism and respect within the public safety field, and this forum, once you accept where you really are located in the "LE Food Chain” and just do what a good dispatcher should. ;)

Cops actually love good dispatchers, but...they despise the egotistical jerks who spout hot air from the safety of a work center.

Here is the bottom line Jimbo. When an officer tells you to cancel EMS all you need to so is say 10-4 or however you ack that in your part of the world & cancel EMS. No lecture on liability or that BS. Just cancel EMS & shut up. Go back to you big gulp diet coke & bag of dorritos. Unless you are an attorney, most cops have received far my instruction in liability than you Mr. "Telecommunicator."