Police Officer Preparation & Law Enforcement Resource - Archive

So here is the story:

A couple of days ago, Carrollton PD starts a pursuit of a burglary suspect, which ends up in my city. The suspect bails out of the car and flees on foot. Carrollton K-9 (whom I train with) and myself begin searching for the suspect in the area where the suspect was last seen. After about 30 minutes of searching, Officers locate a kicked in back door on a residence, on the next street over. They make entry and search the first floor with Carrollton’s K-9. I utilize my K-9 and search the second floor of the house. Once the residence is cleared, we open the attic access, to clear it. Carrollton attempts to put their K-9 into the attic, to no avail. They ask me if I can get my dog in the attic and I reply, “yeah, sure”. We have never trained in attics! I pick up my dog and start up the ladder. I’m thinking to myself, “don’t know how this is going to work out”. I deploy my K-9 into the attic and command her to find the bad guy. To my surprise, she begins looking for the suspect and locates him lying down in a corner of the attic. The suspect doesn’t move an inch and the dog goes into a “bark and hold”, as trained. I put the dog into a down/stay and order the suspect to come out to me. He refuses to comply with my directives.

Here is the problem…If you don’t move…My dog will not bite you! I have no way to get the suspect to come out of hiding, while maintaining concealment. A “find and bite” dog would have bit his *** and he would have come out of hiding!

An Officer starts moving towards the suspect, to take him into custody and the ceiling gives way. When the sheetrock and the insulation settled, we were looking down at the living room floor, which was about a 30 foot drop. :eek: A Carrollton Officer and the Suspect were dangling from the rafters. They were both able to recover, the suspect was taken into custody, and no one was hurt!

With a “find and bite” dog, I believe it was possible and probable that the suspect would have fought the dog, once bitten, and they both would have fell through the ceiling and been seriously injured or killed, but I sure would have liked to use the dog to get him out, for Officer safety .

When we train, we try to come up with all sorts of scenarios that we may run into on the street, so that we are prepared. Attics were not one that we had come up with yet.

Does anyone else handle a “bark and hold” dog and have any thoughts on this?

I am thinking about training the dog to engage passive persons on command. I just don’t know if this will have detrimental effects on the “bark and hold”!

Any and all ideas, critics, and thoughts are welcome!

Here is the problem…If you don’t move…My dog will not bite you! I have no way to get the suspect to come out of hiding, while maintaining concealment.

Not really related to your K9 question, but if the suspect is unresponsive and you cannot safely see/control his hands, could you squirt a little OC in the suspect's direction to elicit a response? That might at least get him moving enough that you can see his hands and maybe get him disoriented. Although in an attic the OC might be hell on everyone up there, but in a different location that may work. I don't know if that's permissable per your use of force policy though, so I guess that would vary by department.

[QUOTE=lepdford]So here is the story:

Read the story, it sounds like you did every thing you could to get the "PERP" to come out before someone, ie the perp, dog or officer got hurt. The "Bark & Hold", are one of the draw backs in one way, beneficial in others. Sounds like this one worked out for all concerned especially the perp. Good Job, :cool:

Not really related to your K9 question, but if the suspect is unresponsive and you cannot safely see/control his hands, could you squirt a little OC in the suspect's direction to elicit a response? That might at least get him moving enough that you can see his hands and maybe get him disoriented. Although in an attic the OC might be hell on everyone up there, but in a different location that may work. I don't know if that's permissable per your use of force policy though, so I guess that would vary by department.
This did cross my mind and would have made him move enough for the dog to engage, but like you stated...In an attic, filled with PO's, this could have possed a problem. All I pictured was numerous blind and choking PO's falling through the ceiling! :eek:

So here is the story:
A couple of days ago, Carrollton PD starts a pursuit of a burglary suspect, which ends up in my city. The suspect bails out of the car and flees on foot. Carrollton K-9 (whom I train with) and myself begin searching for the suspect in the area where the suspect was last seen. After about 30 minutes of searching, Officers locate a kicked in back door on a residence, on the next street over. They make entry and search the first floor with Carrollton’s K-9. I utilize my K-9 and search the second floor of the house. Once the residence is cleared, we open the attic access, to clear it. Carrollton attempts to put their K-9 into the attic, to no avail. They ask me if I can get my dog in the attic and I reply, “yeah, sure”. We have never trained in attics! I pick up my dog and start up the ladder. I’m thinking to myself, “don’t know how this is going to work out”. I deploy my K-9 into the attic and command her to find the bad guy. To my surprise, she begins looking for the suspect and locates him lying down in a corner of the attic. The suspect doesn’t move an inch and the dog goes into a “bark and hold”, as trained. I put the dog into a down/stay and order the suspect to come out to me. He refuses to comply with my directives.
Here is the problem…If you don’t move…My dog will not bite you! I have no way to get the suspect to come out of hiding, while maintaining concealment. A “find and bite” dog would have bit his *** and he would have come out of hiding!
An Officer starts moving towards the suspect, to take him into custody and the ceiling gives way. When the sheetrock and the insulation settled, we were looking down at the living room floor, which was about a 30 foot drop. :eek: A Carrollton Officer and the Suspect were dangling from the rafters. They were both able to recover, the suspect was taken into custody, and no one was hurt!
With a “find and bite” dog, I believe it was possible and probable that the suspect would have fought the dog, once bitten, and they both would have fell through the ceiling and been seriously injured or killed, but I sure would have liked to use the dog to get him out, for Officer safety .
When we train, we try to come up with all sorts of scenarios that we may run into on the street, so that we are prepared. Attics were not one that we had come up with yet.
Does anyone else handle a “bark and hold” dog and have any thoughts on this?
I am thinking about training the dog to engage passive persons on command. I just don’t know if this will have detrimental effects on the “bark and hold”!
Any and all ideas, critics, and thoughts are welcome!
Ok...We have done some passive agitator engagments and Iris performed like a champ. While in the "bark and hold", with no movement from the agitator, she was given the bite command...she engaged without hesitation! I'm cool with that. If there had not been so many PO's in the attic, where I could have maintained clear target acquisition, I know that I could have utilized the dog to get the bad guy to come out of hiding.

Thanks to all of you ( :rolleyes: ) who posted your thoughts!

Thanks to all of you ( :rolleyes: ) who posted your thoughts!
I would have replied but seeing as how I got kicked off the K9 forum by Oscar, I didn't want to "overstep my bounds." :rolleyes:

Many a good K9 discussion with you in PM's though, I guess I'll keep it that way and just reply via those...

I would have replied but seeing as how I got kicked off the K9 forum by Oscar, I didn't want to "overstep my bounds." :rolleyes:

Many a good K9 discussion with you in PM's though, I guess I'll keep it that way and just reply via those...
Now that there is a K-9 forum on the other side (LE)...I think that we can let you out of your restraints on this one!:D

Now that there is a K-9 forum on the other side (LE)...I think that we can let you out of your restraints on this one!:D
Why thank you. :)

Why thank you. :)
U R Welcome!:cool:

We train both the B&H and F&B as separate commands. Take a look back at your training.... have you ever had the dog take passive bites on a decoy laying down? With a hidden sleeve? How's the dog's muzzle work?

Once the dog found the suspect could you recall the dog and get him out of the attic, then deploy Clear Out or some kind of OC or CS fogger in the attic? This would keep officers from exposing themselves climbing up and bring the bad guy to you. Worst case, once the subject is incapacitated with the OC someone in a gas mask goes in to make the apprehension with an armed cover officer at the stair case.

Once the dog found the suspect could you recall the dog and get him out of the attic, then deploy Clear Out or some kind of OC or CS fogger in the attic? This would keep officers from exposing themselves climbing up and bring the bad guy to you. Worst case, once the subject is incapacitated with the OC someone in a gas mask goes in to make the apprehension with an armed cover officer at the stair case.
Yes. That would have been the best plan...but it didn't work out that way!
;)

We train both the B&H and F&B as separate commands.
Can you elaborate a little bit on this?

Yes the dog has taken passive bites on a decoy laying down, with a hidden sleeve and in a bite suit. Her muzzle work it very good as well.

Just out of curosity... this is coming from noone who has K9 training..... what does someone do with someone who doesn't compy?

Just out of curosity... this is coming from noone who has K9 training..... what does someone do with someone who doesn't compy?
Depends on what they are doing when they are "not complying."

Depends on what they are doing when they are "not complying."
Agreed… You have to take several things into consideration. What is the nature of the crime that they committed (misdemeanor vs felony), are they actively resisting, fleeing/evading, or fighting, and do they pose a threat to Officers or the Public.

Felony….Yes….Yes……Bite that ***!:D

In addition…It is stated that:
A well trained Police K-9, has the same command presence as five uniformed Officers. The mere presence of the dog, in itself, is usually enough to keep any problems from starting and stop them if they have already begun.