Police Officer Preparation & Law Enforcement Resource - Archive

Okay, this message is for experienced K9 handlers only...

I have two weeks of training left with my "green" dog. He KNOWS his commands. There is no doubt in my mind about that. My problem is getting him to listen to me when off-lead. As long as I have the leash in hand, and attached to him..., he listens. But, most of the time if I take him off lead he doesn't listen to me. What on earth do I need to do to teach him to listen to me when he is off-lead?

I realize most of the work will be done with him on-lead for the first long while on patrol. Eventually, I have to be able to trust that he will follow my orders if I don't have him on-lead. Help!

um, you want me to move this to the verified side then?

um, you want me to move this to the verified side then?

Yeah really...

Getting your dog to obey off lead isn't just something a "verified" officer has the ability to answer. Heck, I've had more experience working MY dogs than have some of the repliers on RP. Just my two cents. :rolleyes:

A wise trainer once said, “You have to be prepared for your dog to not do what you want him to do when you want him to do it.” If I’m not capable of administering a correction and I know my dog’s not 100% reliable with that command off lead I wouldn’t give it. Each failure reinforces the problem.

Your dog realizes that when he’s off lead you can’t correct him. There are a bunch of things you can do to help wit this depending on what you’re doing when he isn’t listening to you. Personally I love using an e-collar, you can reach out and touch them from a half mile away.

I don't know if I'm as experienced as you want (handler for 18 months), but....
In my opinion, all of your control work stems from basic obedience and the bond between you and your partner. The bond just takes time. In my training group, if a person is having a control issue, you go back and work on basic obedience. When you are working on obedience, give your commands in a manner where you are telling the dog what you want it to do, not asking it to do it. If the dog does what it is told to do... praise it up! If the dog doesn't comply with your command, correct him! When you correct a dog....correct him! Don't do it half heartedly, that is cruel and annoying to the dog. Correct him while his is messing up (very important!!) As soon as the dog does what you asked him to do, after being corrected, Praise him Up (Very important!!) Just takes work and patience. You have to think of the dogs mentality as that of and infant. They learn though repetition and conditioning. I think you will be fine. Good luck!

A dog's mind ( and FROGDIVER and CLINTS :)) are like those Etech-a-Scetch toys that let you draw something, and if you don't like it, you shake it vigoriously to erase it.
Lepford said the most important thing about correcting a dog, and that is timing. I make the reference to the toy in comparison to the dogs ability to remember what it did wrong. If you wait too long to correct the dog, the association to the action is lost, and the dog is confused. I know from experience, because I failed a dog out of training due to my screw up with correction.

1) Make the training fun!
2) Challenge the dog everytime it accomplishes something new, never stay at the same level.
3) Reward the dog with the towel/Kong and High Verbal Praise!
4) Train your dog on a 360 leash. This simulates independance to the dog, and still allows you the distance away from your six foot leash. When your dog is on a 360, start out with basic OB commands doing recalls to your side. Reward the dog if it complys, and advance your training to bite work and releases. Since the object of the lesson is to use verbal over a choke or pull out, over emphasize the tone and raised pitch to the dog.
Remember, you are not requesting anything from that dog, but rather demanding and ordering it. If you don't get what you want, you correct it with a hard snap of the leash and most importantly.....loud verbal!

What is a 360 leash?

It is a leash that is about 25-30ft long, and it allows you to stand in one place and let your dog do "360's" around you.
It is used to do retrieves and simulate the off leash working you would normally do when training a dog. It allows you lots of room for your dog to have freedom and yet allow for the handler to retain control. Check out Ray Allen web site for details on buying one. They should be a must have for training in my humble opinion.

Ok, so call me crazy, but here it goes. One of the issues I had early on training Jonah was the recall. He knew the "come" command because I had practiced with it all the time. On lead, and on a long line, he was great. However, he sucked when he was off lead. I know that the bond wasn't there yet either. It just wasn't. When I called him, he would come when he wanted to. I was not the most important thing in his life at that time. I feel like this is a catch 22 because when you have a good recall, you have the chance to give him the freedom he needs in my opinion to form a good bond in the first place. What was my answer? TriTronics. 2 zaps and his recall has been solid ever since. Some will say that they don't like the e-collars, but for this, it's been the greatest thing I've used on his recall. Our bond grew TREMENDOUSLY after that, because I had the confidence to let him off lead when I wanted. Now his recall is immediate, every single time no matter what the situation. I was on a search the other day and he saw two deer, called him to me and he came right back. He'll even come to me off a dog in heat. I can't say this works for everyone, but it sure as hell worked good for me.


...and no, I'm not LEO ;)

It is a leash that is about 25-30ft long, and it allows you to stand in one place and let your dog do "360's" around you.
It is used to do retrieves and simulate the off leash working you would normally do when training a dog. It allows you lots of room for your dog to have freedom and yet allow for the handler to retain control. Check out Ray Allen web site for details on buying one. They should be a must have for training in my humble opinion.

Is there anything to the leash besides it being 25-30 feet long?

No, this leash is really just a long extension of what you already carry. However, its purpose is the simulation of independence while training your dog. Some dogs get annoyed with them, and will learn that the leash doesn't mean that they can get away with much since you can still reel them in, or snap a knot in their ***. SARDOG hit on that with Jonah. Train Baks with some extremes, and by this, I mean to make the off leash corrections pretty harsh in tone, body language, and regained leash control snaps. Now, don't go so far as to shut the dog down or get your dog to not want to work for you. When Baks does do something correct off leash, extend the praise and make him feel good about it with the reward and your attention. Do it again. Then begin adding distance in the training evolutions. You will have a long road the first year with him, but it will develope.

Well, we've tried the Dogtra shock collar, but Baks doesn't care. His pain threshold seems to not exist. It does not matter what you do, if it's pain, he doesn't care. Can someone give me some other techniques on getting him to listen better? He is not going to pass certifications at this rate. I'm getting fed up, but I'm not giving up. ANY AND ALL HELP would be great!

Oh, just so you know, he KNOWS what to do. I have no doubt about that. He is not dumb, so I know it's not that he doesn't grasp the concept of listening. He is very intelligent. I'm wondering if his intelligence is what is hindering him?? He CHOOSES not to listen. Now, on the flip side, I can get him to listen to me MUCH better when it is just the two of us. When our main K9 handler (and trainer) is not there, Baks is a different dog. Is it possible that he cannot grasp the concept of two "Alpha's"?

Well, I was informed today that Baks may be going back to where he came from. If he does not demonstrate a willingness to OBEY, we aren't going to use him. I don't want him to go back. But, we've tried everything. My training supervisor has been handling police dogs for close to 20 years. We have another handler who has been doing it for 18 years...he even helped train President Reagan's bomb dogs while in the Air Force. They have done everything they know. He won't listen. So...

sorry to hear that.

Bummer dude. One of my training group had to give up his partner a few months ago, due to bad elbows, for a new green dog. I'm not looking forward to that day. I'm kind of fond of the one I have now.

what is he not obeying? How long has he been training? 20 years dosn't make some a good trainer. They may have been doing the wrong things for 20 years. I'm not saying they are, but I don't know if I can go along with that.

If the dog doesn't show drive, that's one thing. If the dog just "doesn't listen", well, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but that to me sounds more like a handler / training problem. I'm not saying it's you. You're doing what you've been taught, but if you give some details as to what's happening, we might be able to help you.

PS - Is this just a recall problem? If so, how long have you been working on it?

Okay, we started training on August 1, 2005. My dog, Baks, is a 17 (almost 18) month old Belgian Malinois. While on lead (I use a 4ft leather lead) Baks listens. He knows the commands-- that's not even a question. He has a very high drive. He is an excellent tracker; he loves to attack the bite suit; he loves to ground-fight; he loves finding drugs; he is great at article searches...he knows how to do everything we've taught him. Now, when it comes to obedience...well, if he is off-lead, he won't listen. We have tried everything: choker chain, pinch collar, e-collar, you name it. We have tried yelling, choking him, pinning him to the ground. We have tried a "nice-guy" appoach, too. It seems he hears our command, and basically tells us to kiss his butt since he is off-lead.
To sum it up--excellent with his obedience on-lead, horrible off-lead.

What are you using to keep his focus during obedience? Are you working him with a ball or other reward item?

What are you using to keep his focus during obedience? Are you working him with a ball or other reward item?

Ditto - sounds like Baks is saying he's got better things to do with his freedom. Motivation is the key...you need to make him WANT to come to you. Whether it be a food reward, toy, tug, etc...he needs to have enough of a bond and respect to want to return when called.

If not positive motivation....what level was the e-collar set at? Perhaps bumping it up a few notches will get his attention.

We've tried a ball, kong, firehose piece...everything he loves.

Bamo!! Indy said it best right here...


Ditto - sounds like Baks is saying he's got better things to do with his freedom. Motivation is the key...you need to make him WANT to come to you. Whether it be a food reward, toy, tug, etc...he needs to have enough of a bond and respect to want to return when called.

In addition to that, this stuff takes time. The dog is 18 months old and is really still a puppy. Sometimes their attention span is still short at that age, and this is going to take time. POSITIVE training always works best, at least in my experience. When I used the e-collar, it was somewhat strong but very brief, to get Jonah's attention. The bond is very very important. If you're not the most important thing in the dogs life, he's not going to come to you, and if he thinks he's going to get pinned down, he's not going to come. I would not give up on this dog yet. Sounds like you've made so much progress, and you have one more hurdle to get over. I think you can do this.

I definitely do not want to give up on Baks. I had actually been wondering if he was just still immature, but I didn't know. He has passed his departmental certification on cocaine/marijuana (still lacking on his heroin); tracking; building and area searches. Hopefully he will improve soon so he can pass his obedience certification and I can use him.

I know you probably want to get out on the street with him asap, but is it possible to just tell the dept he's not ready yet? How does that work? Will they just say "nope - we don't have time for that. New dog, new trainer." Or will they give you guys time to get things worked out?

When I used the e-collar, it was somewhat strong but very brief, to get Jonah's attention.

ITA - that is exactly how it should be used. Get their attention a couple times and you can usually progress from there with positive reinforcement. Sometimes you have to light a little fire under their tails to tell them to listen up. ;)

When you get your obedience toy out for the dog what is his reaction? Does he go ape pooh snapping and jumping for it or is he not that interested? You mentioned he’s having trouble with some of his drug work….. I guess I’m starting to wonder weather this was a properly selected dog that has the correct drives for the work.

IMO when the obedience toy comes out , the dog should be so wired for sound that you can see it. Also… have you tried a real thin wire line on him yet? Like a 8” piece of wire with a toggle at the end? The dog generally won’t feel the weight of the line and you can grab it quick to administer a correction.

I know you probably want to get out on the street with him asap, but is it possible to just tell the dept he's not ready yet? How does that work? Will they just say "nope - we don't have time for that. New dog, new trainer." Or will they give you guys time to get things worked out?

The dog can't be used if he doesn't pass certification. Whether or not they give us more time is really up in the air right now. The deputy chief (operations) wants him done in the time we set (six weeks from Aug. 1).


When you get your obedience toy out for the dog what is his reaction? Does he go ape pooh snapping and jumping for it or is he not that interested? You mentioned he’s having trouble with some of his drug work….. I guess I’m starting to wonder weather this was a properly selected dog that has the correct drives for the work.

He goes ape@#$^! There is no question about his enjoyment of playing with the kong. As far as the drug work, he did not alert to heroin on two occasions. One time was in a minivan, and the other two dogs missed it, too. Baks KNOWS the odor. He has found it numerous times. The other time was in a garage. He was in the scent cone and kept looking for the source, but he just couldn't find it. So, I'm not too worried about the drug work. He knows his drugs :). He also really enjoys trying to find them.

To sum it up: He definitely has all the drives. He just won't listen off-lead. I personally believe more time would probably help, but I don't know if I will get it.

The dog can't be used if he doesn't pass certification.

That much I know. :) I was just curious if the dept would give you the time you need to work with him and delay certification until both of you are ready.

That much I know. I was just curious if the dept would give you the time you need to work with him and delay certification until both of you are ready.

I hope!

I'll be crossing my fingers that they give you more time. To be so strict on a timeframe with an animal like that, well, let me just say that I think it's wrong. Keep us informed ok?

Will do! Thank you all for your input!

Well, he passed! He did it with the shock collar on (scared crapless of it now :)), but he passed departmental standards, nonetheless. Now I just have to whip him into shape by Oct. 17 for the NCPDA (www.ncpda.net) certifications. Thanks to all who helped!

Great news! Keep us posted on your progress.

Congrats, and well done!

That is great news!!!

Well, he passed! He did it with the shock collar on (scared crapless of it now :)), but he passed departmental standards, nonetheless. Now I just have to whip him into shape by Oct. 17 for the NCPDA (www.ncpda.net) certifications. Thanks to all who helped!

Good work Six!!! I'm glad it worked out for you. :D

Great to hear! Good luck on the next test!

Bumping up - how's he coming along sixpanel? Making any progress?

Baks is doing well. I've only been able to work a shift and a half with him since we were "cut loose". My wife (7 months pregnant) fell on her stomach at my grandparents house and we spent the weekend in the hospital, so I missed a couple shifts. Hopefully, I'll start back tomorrow. Thanks for the prod, though! I was able to do several vehicle sniffs, though. I hope to use him a lot more this weekend.

That's great to hear. Keep it up!