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Samuel
07-27-05, 03:53 PM
Size, Strength, Skill (etal) makes no difference? Think again.

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Received in an email at work. Apologies if it's a repost!

http://www.*********.com/writers/co...rticles/116525/
(over at O.com, they censor PoliceOne dunno why)


For the full series of articles, check out the web site. This story in particular shows how important tactics and training can be.


"THE MUSCLE PEELED AWAY FROM THE BONE LIKE A WELL-COOKED SPARE RIB"

I was working patrol in a high crime area when a call came in about a man screaming outside his home. Responding officers (including a DT instructor) confronted a nude man in front of the house, punching out porch windows. He was drenched in blood from cutting his arms and hands but kept up his tirade. Another DT instructor and I were called for backup.

When we arrived the subject was at a standoff with the officers, holding a hooked piece of glass in his right hand and threatening to stab any officer who came close. We Maced him with no effect. He just laughed as he cut his left forearm down to the bone in a circle all the way around his arm, nearly amputating it. Bleeding profusely, he then ran into his house and slammed the door.

In my mind that was fine. If he was by himself we could have waited for him to bleed out. But one of the gung ho officers followed him through the door. In a split second, I could see the subject swing his arm with the glass from behind the door. The officer triangulated out to a corner and drew his gun, but he was blinded by blood that covered his face. I didn't know if he'd been slashed or if it was blood from the subject.

I pushed the door hard and pinned the subject behind it. I had my gun in my right hand and my flashlight in my left. As a last ditch effort before shooting through the door I swung my flashlight and luckily connected with the top of the subject's forehead. He dropped the glass.

The four of us (mind you, 3 DT instructors)used every technique we could think of...baton strikes all over his body, joint manipulations, knee strikes to the face, head and body - all with no effect. The subject was like a superhuman Gumby.

At one point we got one handcuff around the arm that was cut all around and when an officer pulled the cuff behind the subject's back the muscle peeled away from the bone like a well-cooked spare rib. That had no effect on the subject, but the officer let go and started to puke.

Finally I got a lateral vascular neck restraint on the subject and rendered him unconscious. We were exhausted and breathing as hard as if we'd just run a marathon. I told the other officers, "If this guy gets back up, shoot him."

To our disbelief the subject came to and stood up with all of us hanging on. Mind you, most of us were in the 5 ft. 10 in. to 6 ft., 200 lb. range, while the subject was about 5 ft. 7 in. and 140 lbs. None of us could believe it! I knew if this guy got away from us someone was going to die.

Once again a plethora of impact techniques the like of which usually results in death were being delivered. In the melee we inadvertently moved back onto shattered glass and the subject was frantically trying to reach a piece.

Somehow I was able to apply a reverse lateral vascular restraint as we were both facedown on the glass and again rendered him unconscious. Three of us were then able to handcuff both arms as the other officer continued puking in the doorway.

To get the subject away from all of the glass we dragged him outside and threw him into a snow bank. When our boss arrived there was so much blood at the scene and on us that he called in an officer-involved shooting, assuming that the person lying in the red snow bank was dead.

To my amazement the subject survived. He was high on angel dust at the time.

A year later I saw a one-armed man riding a bike in my sector. He flagged me down. When I went over to him, I recognized that it was the guy who'd brought me the worst brawl of my life. He thanked me and apologized.

He had been in rehab for the year and said he didn't remember the incident, but his neighbor told him the police had shown ultimate restraint that day. The neighbor said if he'd been the police he would have shot him. We saved that man's life in more ways than one that day.

I shook his hand and drove away. I never thought I would condone the shooting of an unarmed man, but that incident changed my mind for sure. Ten years later, now retired from the force, I still occasionally have nightmares about it.

We were fortunate we were able to control the subject eventually. From that point forward anytime we had to deal with someone threatening nude in public we developed a game plan before we even stepped foot on the playing field.

Guy Rossi
Program Coordinator/Curriculum Developer
Rochester (NY) Public Safety Training Facility

http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/ForceScience/articles/116525/


SPEtactical
07-28-05, 01:19 AM
Great story and a great reason to put the lvnr back into the standard police DT training.

DT4EMS
07-28-05, 10:51 AM
Great story and a great reason to put the lvnr back into the standard police DT training.

I strongly agree!!


smoke63b
07-28-05, 11:35 AM
That's an awesome story. Reminds me of a guy I knew in the military. Mind you, this is in no way the same kind of situation. We regularly had semi-friendly grappling matches down in my motor pool at work. Semi-friendly cause they usually turn out pretty dang rough in an all male unit with a lot of mechanics lol. Anyway, I had a Sgt. who was about 5'6" and maybe 185 pounds. He was very fit/muscle bound. It would literally take 3 to 5 of us, bigger guys, to get him on the ground. You could punch him, kick him, knee him, you could not get him down. The only way we ever got this guy on the ground is because he would eventually tire out from 3 or 4 guys on him and he'd finally just give up. One on one or even two on one, he was impossible to take down. We didn't use quite as rough a tactics on him as in the story above obviously, but he wasn't high on anything either. I can full well believe there are people out there that when hyped up on somethin can be like wrestling a 2000 pound bull to the ground. This little guy sure was.

w1zard
07-28-05, 11:39 AM
Very nice story. I guess the lvnr is effective to the extreme, especially in that case. Anyone think a taser would have worked? The guy was high on Angel dust so im not sure what to think there.

NYUSCG
07-28-05, 01:00 PM
I'm sorry, lvnr? :confused: :o

Norm357
07-28-05, 02:06 PM
Why wasnt the perp shot? It would have been a good shoot.

w1zard
07-28-05, 02:49 PM
I'm sorry, lvnr? :confused:

Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint. Popular LE defense tactic when all else fails, though not so popular anymore due to its ease of incapacitating a suspect 'permanently'. Or so I'v been told. :eek:

smoke63b
07-28-05, 04:08 PM
Very nice story. I guess the lvnr is effective to the extreme, especially in that case. Anyone think a taser would have worked? The guy was high on Angel dust so im not sure what to think there.

Not that this would apply to this story but, I saw on COPS (i know, i know) They taser'd a BIG huge dude. He must've been like 6'8" 350 or something. He dropped on the ground and cried like a baby. When they were putting him in the car, he kept saying stuff like, "I've been hurt a lot of times, but that's the worst thing that ever happened to me." It was quite funny lol. They tazed the guy right in the upper back lol. He was struggling and I don't blame the cops at all. He was like twice the size of the two cops put together.

SPEtactical
07-28-05, 09:53 PM
Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint. Popular LE defense tactic when all else fails, though not so popular anymore due to its ease of incapacitating a suspect 'permanently'. Or so I'v been told. :eek:

LVNR is an effective move and is utilized regularly in martial arts and submission grappling competitions with no ill effects or deaths. The problem lies with people unfamiliar with the technique confusing it with a choke that crushes the trachea.

Neat little explanation about such techniques:

http://judoinfo.com/chokes.htm

LadyHollman
08-08-05, 04:02 AM
I would have just tased him. Maybe that was not an option for them? Not that the neck restraint is a bad thing, its actually a good thing :)

....

Kudos that they weren't seriously hurt and the neck restraint was there for them.

but....

I have to wonder about their decision to close in on and wrestle around with a bloody naked guy holding glass shards whose appearance and behavior screamed PCP.

mxwelch
08-08-05, 04:18 AM
I would have just tased him. Maybe that was not an option for them?




It wouldn't have stopped him. I bet he wouldn't even noticed.

LadyHollman
08-08-05, 06:42 PM
It wouldn't have stopped him. I bet he wouldn't even noticed.

Maybe, maybe not.

It was their decision and it utimately worked for them but I do have to wonder ....

MetPC
08-08-05, 08:25 PM
It wouldn't have stopped him. I bet he wouldn't even noticed.

I was under the impression that taser are 99.99% effective despite if the subject is high on whatever?

Switchback
08-08-05, 08:31 PM
I was under the impression that taser are 99.99% effective despite if the subject is high on whatever?

You are correct, sir... assuming proper, effective deployment.

MetPC
08-08-05, 08:38 PM
Cool - I'll keep one on my wishlist then!!

DT4EMS
08-28-05, 05:48 AM
You are correct, sir... assuming proper, effective deployment.

During the certification class, one of the videos we viewed was a very muscular man getting tased and cooperating with verbal commands.

He was walking with has pants around his ankles and was OC'd with no effect. The Taser dropped him quick.

We have had 100% effectiveness on our deployments here. No ill effects noted after the fact either.

mobrien316
08-28-05, 09:33 AM
The only incidents I’m aware of where the Taser failed were ones where both barbs did not stick. If both barbs hit and stick and the circuit is completed the subject will go down.

The subject’s ability to resist pain is not a factor and neither is any possible altered mental status. The electro-muscular disruption of the charge interrupts the signals the brain is getting whether the subject is high, drunk, exceptionally focused, or just terminally stupid.

DontBurnMyFlag
02-08-06, 11:44 PM
I heard a story once of some crazy guy attacking about 5-7 cops. Nobody could take him down. I mean arm-bars, joint manip, choke holds etc. Mace didnt work, he must have been on Angel Dust or PCP or something. So anyway, one of the senior officers comes up. Hes a about 6'0 tall in his 40's. Walks over to the guy struggling, kicks him square in the balls and falls him. The problem is, if he doesnt feel pain, he might not feel the kick to the groin. I just thought it was a funny story anyway. Ha.

hitnrun
02-09-06, 02:20 AM
I would have just tased him. Maybe that was not an option for them?



The author said that this happened 10+ years ago. Most agencies didn't have tasers at that time. Even then, the models that they had weren't as effective as the ones we use today.

slocar
04-24-06, 01:56 PM
I wonder what happened to the guy who ran in and possibly got slashed in the face.

fatboyjim154
04-24-06, 06:51 PM
I have alway been and continue to be an believer in the saying "It's not the size of the dog in the fight. It's the fight in the dog that matters".

retdetsgt
04-25-06, 04:44 PM
LVNR is an effective move and is utilized regularly in martial arts and submission grappling competitions with no ill effects or deaths. The problem lies with people unfamiliar with the technique confusing it with a choke that crushes the trachea.

Neat little explanation about such techniques:

http://judoinfo.com/chokes.htm


Actually, people have died when it was used correctly, especially African American males. For some reason, in some people the carotid artery doesn't return to normal shape after then hold is applied.

We used to use it regularly and we were received ongoing extensive training in it. In fact, for a while it was moved way down on the continuum of force. However, we had a normal, healthy AA male die from it and the autopsy showed what I just said, the carotid artery stayed compressed. His trachea was intact and undamaged. This had happened several times prior to this in the L.A. area.

JosephK
05-27-06, 02:53 AM
That isn't even that short.

That guy must've been on a soup of drugs.

I'm 5'4" and have beaten my share of 6'0+ men in SAMBO competition.

It isn't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.