Police Officer Preparation & Law Enforcement Resource - Archive

Hey guys, my name is John. I am 18 years old and I turn 19 next month.

Here is my situation;
I read the Motorcycle License Checklist from the DMV (Link towards bottom of post) and from my understanding from what it says, I think that if I am 18 years of age and have completed the MSF Safety Course, that I can get a license. There's even a split on it that shows instruction to get your endorsement for people under 18, and over 18. However, my friend who is 20 years of age just recently went to the DMV to get his motorcycle endorsement (he has completed MSF) and they told him that he had to have his permit for 6 months before they could give him the full license.

This made me nervous, as the only reason why I am buying a motorcycle is to commute to work, and driving on a freeway/driving at night is prohibited if you only have a permit.

So, I called the DMV earlier and told the lady who answered the phone my situation, and showed her the information I had found, and she told me she "See's what I'm talking about" and went and got a manager. I talked to that manager for about 10 minutes and explained to him that there is nowhere where it says I need to hold a permit for 6 months as long as I am over 18 years of age. He went and got ANOTHER manager and after 10 minutes of being on hold, the original lady who answered the phone told me that the managers agreed with me, and that I should be able to get my full license as long as I bring in completion of the MSF course and a valid license. She told me this was valid information because the managers who I spoke to were the people that do all the motorcycle stuff (the driving tests, and stuff of that nature). Then I asked for the name of the managers so that when I go to the DMV, they could call them directly instead of me having to argue with someone over the counter. She put me on hold for about 15 minutes and a new lady was on the phone, and told me that if I'm under 21, then I need a permit for 6 months. I went back and fourth arguing with her for literally 45 minutes before I got fed up and asked to speak to one of the managers I had spoke to before. After another half hour, the manager answered and said he had been been on the phone with other people and they informed him that if I was under 21, I would need to carry a permit for 6 months before I got my full license. When I asked him to show me proof of this, he guided me through the vehicle codes and onto "V C Section 12509.5" (Link towards bottom of post). I read through it quickly and saw at the bottom where it says "(b) A person described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subdivision (a) shall hold an instruction permit issued pursuant to this section for a minimum of six months prior to being issued a class M1 or M2 license." After seeing that, I agreed that I was wrong and hung up the phone. But then I realized that the title of the page is "V C Section 12509.5 Instruction Permits: Motorcycle" and I am NOT applying for a motorycle PERMIT, I am applying for a LICENSE. I am well aware that these are the laws for the permit, and I have no argument against them.

From reading all of this, this is my understanding of the law.

If you are between the ages 15 1/2 and 18 years old, then you MUST have your permit for 6 months before getting the full endorsement.

BUT, if you are OVER 18 years old and under 21, you need to complete the MSF course to get a full endorsement, but to NOT need to carry a permit for 6 months.

And finally, if you are over 21, you have the option of taking the MSF course or taking the DMV driving test to get your full endorsement.

I understand that anyone under 21 is REQUIRED to complete the MSF course before they can even touch a motorycle. But from my understanding, as soon as you turn 18 you no longer need to hold your permit for 6 months.


Here's a few links (You need to take out some spaces in the beginning of the web address);

CA DMV Motorcycle License Checklist:
www . dmv . ca . gov/dl/checklists/mc.htm

CA DMV Motorycle Permit Checklist:
www . dmv . ca . gov/dl/checklists/mc_permit.htm

CA DMV Motorycle Permit Vehicle Code:
www . dmv . ca . gov/pubs/vctop/d06/vc12509_5.htm



Please let me know what you guys think, as this is a very confusing matter for me.

And if someone can find the vehicle code for the actual license, that would be awesome.

Regards,
John

Instruction Permits: Motorcycle

12509.5. (a) A person shall obtain an instruction permit issued pursuant to this section prior to operating, or being issued a class M1 or M2 driver's license to operate, a two-wheel motorcycle, motordriven cycle, motorized scooter, motorized bicycle, moped, or bicycle with an attached motor. The person shall meet the following requirements to obtain an instruction permit for purposes of this section:

(1) If age 15 years and 6 months or older, but under the age of 18 years, the applicant shall meet all of the following requirements:

(A) Have a valid class C license or complete driver education and training pursuant to paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section 12814.6.

(B) Successfully complete a motorcyclist safety program that is operated pursuant to Article 2 (commencing with Section 2930) of Chapter 5 of Division 2.

(C) Pass the motorcycle driver's written exam.

(2) If 18 years of age or older, but under 21 years of age, the applicant shall meet both of the following requirements:

(A) Successfully complete a motorcyclist safety program that is operated pursuant to Article 2 (commencing with Section 2930) of Chapter 5 of Division 2.

(B) Pass the motorcycle driver's written exam.

(3) If 21 years of age or older, pass the motorcycle driver's written exam.

(b) A person described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subdivision (a) shall hold an instruction permit issued pursuant to this section for a minimum of six months prior to being issued a class M1 or M2 license.

(c) A person issued an instruction permit pursuant to this section shall not operate a two-wheel motorcycle, motor-driven cycle, motorized scooter, motorized bicycle, moped, or bicycle with an attached motor during the hours of darkness, shall stay off any freeways that have full control of access and have no crossings at grade, and shall not carry any passenger except an instructor licensed under Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 11100) of Division 5 or a qualified instructor as defined in Section 41907 of the Education Code.

(d) An instruction permit issued pursuant to this section shall be valid for a period not exceeding 24 months from the date of application.


The way I read it, you must have your permit for 6 months before you can obtain a license.

The statute appears to be defining the requirements, prior to applying for your license.

I'm unsure of where the issue or the question is. I'm tired and not a California LEO, so maybe I missed something. Hopefully an officer from California will be along shortly.

And if that is true, and anyone under 21 is treated the same (Has to do MSF, permit for 6 months, etc.) then why is there 2 different sections in the License Checklist, for people over 18 and under 18? And why isn't having a permit for 6 months listed in the requirements for people over 18? That's the exact argument I had with the girl I had first talked to and that's when she grabbed a manager.

I feel like this law isn't laid out well enough. I wish I knew my way around the vehicle code, very curious to see what it has to say about the actual license requirements!

This is going to be strictly between you and the DMV... btw, you DO see that there is one more subsection under 1 than under 2, right?

This is going to be strictly between you and the DMV... btw, you DO see that there is one more subsection under 1 than under 2, right?
Yes, I see that. I just think these laws aren't written very clearly. I want to see something in the vehicle code about license restrictions, not permit restrictions because every single thing I find about the actual license says nothing about needing a permit for 6 months if you are over 18.

Looks pretty straight forward to me in part (a) where it states plainly,

"12509.5. (a) A person shall obtain an instruction permit issued pursuant to this section prior to operating, or being issued a class M1 or M2 driver's license to operate".

I mean, many laws can be quite confusing, but that is written pretty damn clearly to me.

As for asking why there are different rules for under 18, 18 to 21, and over 21, doesn't matter why. You just have to follow the ones that apply to your specific age range. If you're under 21, which I believe you said you are, you MUST obtain and keep a permit for 6 months prior to being issued a regular license to drive a motorcycle.


Yes, I see that. I just think these laws aren't written very clearly. I want to see something in the vehicle code about license restrictions, not permit restrictions because every single thing I find about the actual license says nothing about needing a permit for 6 months if you are over 18.

Just wondering if you read the statute posted above... Again, it plainly states that if you're 18 to under 21, you MUST get a permit first for 6 months before applying for a regular license.

You can either apply for a license, or apply for a permit.

With motorcycles in CA, these are completely different things. Someone who is 50 can apply for a permit, even when they have met all the qualifications of a license.

It's written clear that I am eligible for a permit.
It's written clear that anyone under 21 needs to complete the MSF course before they can do anything.
It's written clear that if you are under 18, you need to have your permit for 6 months to get your license.
But, according to the DMV check list of everything I need for a LICENSE, I have met all of the qualifications.

In all honesty, I'm just looking for someone who knows there way around the vehicle code and laws. I'm sure there's something in there written about licenses for motorcycles.

You can either apply for a license, or apply for a permit.

With motorcycles in CA, these are completely different things. Someone who is 50 can apply for a permit, even when they have met all the qualifications of a license.

It's written clear that I am eligible for a permit.
It's written clear that anyone under 21 needs to complete the MSF course before they can do anything.
It's written clear that if you are under 18, you need to have your permit for 6 months to get your license.

Wrong. It's clearly written that anyone under 21 must have their permit for 6 months before they get their license. Refer to (b) in the statute above, which reads:

"(b) A person described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subdivision (a) shall hold an instruction permit issued pursuant to this section for a minimum of six months prior to being issued a class M1 or M2 license."

Those persons described in paragraph (1) are "age 15 years and 6 months or older, but under the age of 18 years" and described in paragraph (2) are "18 years of age or older, but under 21 years of age"

But, according to the DMV check list of everything I need for a LICENSE, I have met all of the qualifications.

Wrong again, you have not met the full list of everything you need for a LICENSE. You have not had your PERMIT for 6 months yet.

In all honesty, I'm just looking for someone who knows there way around the vehicle code and laws. I'm sure there's something in there written about licenses for motorcycles.

Actually, the way the statute above is written, it does away with applying directly for a license unless you are 21 or over. When a law is written that you SHALL apply for and drive on a PERMIT first, then that's the only option there is. Someone who is 50 would not have to apply for a permit since they are over 21, and obviously the law states they could apply directly for a LICENSE. You, however, are NOT 21 or over, so therefore you MUST apply for and drive on a PERMIT for 6 months before they issue you a regular LICENSE.

The DMV already explained it to him. I have no idea why he insists on coming here and arguing his case (erroneously at that)...